SPOTLIGHT FOR BROKERS: CHANGES TO NAR, MLS, BUY SIDE COMPENSATION AND THE INDUSTRY

The Roundtable_11-02-23

[00:00:00] Andreas Senie: Welcome back to this month's roundtable. You're all in one comprehensive view of what's happening across the real estate industry, straight from some of the industry's earliest technology adopters and foremost experts in marketing, brokerage, government policy, capital, and cybersecurity. I'm your host, Andreas Senni, excited to have you.

As always, this is a three part show, introductions for each of our roundtable hosts, what's happening in their business sector, what they do. Then we unpack sector focus. What's the big paradigm shift or the biggest news shaking up that side of the industry? And what does this mean for you and your business?

How to outpace your competition in the next 30 days. Welcome back to this month's roundtable. Joining me this month, none other than Saul Klein. Realtor emeritus, data advocate, futurist, original real estate internet evangelist. Executive editor and interim president of the San Diego Multiple Listing Service.

Freshly back from overseas. Saul, so nice to see you again. Yeah, it's great to 

[00:01:40] Saul Klein: be back, you know. It is great. 

[00:01:45] Andreas Senie: We've got a lot of questions. You were missed. It's good to 

[00:01:51] Saul Klein: go on the road every once in a while, right? Gives you a new perspective. 

[00:01:55] Andreas Senie: Hopefully, it should. Also joining us, none other than Rebecca Carlson, Founder, CEO of Carlson Integrated, Past President of Nitecar Brokerage Owner.

Becca, nice to see you, nice and bright over there in Chicago. And we are loaded on deck in Chicago tonight, for the record. Anna Maria, also joining us tonight, Director of Business Development at Inland Green Capital. All things green, going green with green, and green in her background. That's right. Well, I'm Anna Maria, nice to see you, as well as Dan Wagner.

Senior VP, government relations, real estate group of companies. Now we're back with newer and improved software. Super excited over 150 plus attendees on LinkedIn. We're breaking benchmarks here on the show and to my right is Saul. So what is going on? What are you doing these days in your sector? 

[00:02:50] Saul Klein: Well, you know, I, uh, I said I was on the road, but this last week on the road meant San Diego.

So it's always great to go on the road when you don't have to leave town. And so I attended the real estate standards organization, a fall conference that was held in San Diego, and it was a two and a half days of technology and, uh, the ability to, to get back with people I hadn't seen in a while. And so lots of things going on in the real estate standards world.

That's real kind of interesting. You know, it's one of the issues we've always had with multiple listing services. They all speak different languages. And so when you try to aggregate them and bring them together and put them in a format, normalize them so that other entities can use them. It's not easy.

And if you could have a back in the old days with the, when we were doing this with NAR, we called it. Um, a data dictionary and that's what they call it today. You can build a data dictionary and you can start to normalize that information and it becomes easier for companies to innovate and build around it.

So this organization Riso been around for quite a while and it was just a great conference, talked about all kinds of different things and kind of the one of the most exciting things for me is And we've known this for years is we have MLS in this country. And I know we could talk a lot about some potential changes in MLS in this country, but the fact is that A, that MLS creates a marketplace that benefits everybody, benefits consumers, benefits, buyers, benefits, sellers, uh, benefits brokers and agents.

And it makes your real estate almost liquid, not quite liquid. definitely marketable, ri buy a piece of real estate 3 4 weeks later, that pie So this is done through t of here in north america rest of the world conduct

a little bit different, b In MLS for a number of reasons. And so there's a, I'm gonna be speaking at a conference in Paris at the end of this month or early December about multiple listing services. And you know, they brought me in to talk about not the technology, I get to talk about the history, how it came to be, what do you bring an old guy in to talk about?

Not technology, right? They're gonna talk about what, how did it evolve, what did it evolve from? What are the benefits? Where do I think it might be going? So. You know, lots going on. There's some, uh, major legal, uh, decisions that we've seen, litigation decisions in the real estate world, so there's plenty going on.

Uh, interest rates is all shaking up . It's, yeah. Right now, you know, interest rates didn't go up this last time. And so you got this marketplace of residential real estate where properties keep going up in price because of the lack of, of demand or supply and, and interest rates. If they start to come, you'd think if interest rates that go up, then it cut off the demand and.

And maybe the prices would moderate, but that hasn't happened. Now it looks like maybe if interest rates, uh, don't go up if they come down, that'll create even more demand in the marketplace. So what's going on in the residential side? 

[00:06:01] Andreas Senie: Um, and I'm going to get to the great reset the minute, but to your right is Ben Carlson this month.

And I do want to hear more on the, that legal issue, since we've got regulation and finance here as well as interest rates and marketing tonight, Becca. Is it as exciting on your end of the fence here, Q4 end of the year? 

[00:06:19] Saul Klein: Well, it's actually really fun to listen to Saul talk about the data dictionary because we recently actually did a website for a client who is a KW broker, and we got to do a full IDX integration as part of that.

So we worked with some of the technologies that are making integrations possible. Thank you, MLS. for having those available so that they can utilize

Knowing a little bit of like knowing the history from Saul is very cool to have come into it from the technology angle, but actually having that historical background as well. 

[00:07:00] Andreas Senie: We don't know where we're going without knowing how we got there. And literally it was on the road to get us there. 

[00:07:07] Saul Klein: Thank you, 

[00:07:08] Anna Maria Kowalik: Saul.

[00:07:10] Andreas Senie: For those that don't know the MLS going digital, I would almost liken to, uh, the printing press being invented for real estate. Distribution and speed, right? Everybody looking and reading and understanding, uh, with its limitations, of course, outside of the IDX feed and otherwise commercials slow to adopt.

There isn't a standard in the international community. even fewer standards globally, right? But that's what Dan spends most of his month doing, talking about regulation and standards on the real estate side, I believe. Dan, nice to see you as always. 

[00:07:48] Dan Wagner: Oh my gosh, Andreas, it's great to be here. And I will tell you what, it's, uh, it feels like we're, we're back in the swing of things with Saul, uh, on.

He's kind of like the big toe of this whole, uh, organization. 

[00:08:00] Andreas Senie: So I bring him on to talk about tech just for the record, but I like hearing about everything else, too 

[00:08:06] Dan Wagner: Yes, so so the big big huge news that happened today is that Bob Goldberg? Is he resigned as CEO of the National Association of Realtors and the Kia Wright has been named as the interim?

CEO The Kia, uh, was from Chicago and she, uh, was a CEO of the Chicago Sun Times and there everybody's excited to welcome her on board. Um, Bob Goldberg has been a friend of mine for many years and wish him nothing but the best. He's, uh, worked really hard for our association and for the industry. The, um, The amount of, uh, turmoil and everything NAR is going through is something that, uh, that hurts my heart because when I look at an organization that has helped, um, so many people in their industry, so many people who've, um, needed, uh, who, you know, want to help people and get out there and sell real estate.

I mean, this has just made so many professionals and so many good people. And when you have a lot of turmoil with NAR, you also have the issue of the lawsuit that NAR, at the first phase, we lost. And it, it puts a pall, I think, on the idea of representation that somehow there's, uh, there's something nefarious going on and, um, there's nothing, you know, more, um, open from the truth.

Yeah. Then the fact that we have, uh, the code of ethics, uh, we are such a strong organization and, you know, when you have. People, um, I've gone on to the, uh, the NAR, um, hub site, and, you know, there's different comments from people, and one of the things that's frustrating is that, uh, no one likes paying anything, um, and so when people look at, and the general public look at what realtors make, everybody, you know, throw, casts dispersions, but these are professional people that are really doing a great job, and, you know, everybody wants something for nothing, so, uh, people are on the sidelines cheering that we're gonna, Let reduce commissions.

And, um, and I, I just, it's further from the truth than what, um, is being portrayed out there. So, so that's where I come at tonight. And I'm, uh, you know, I just want to make sure that people know how much we need this National Association of Realtors and how much we need this industry. So that's my two cents.

[00:10:35] Saul Klein: Well, 

[00:10:36] Andreas Senie: and in line with that, for those that didn't get it or didn't see it on any of the social media channels, go watch the Monty Python. What did the Romans give us? And that's, one of you sent that to me and it really made my day. 

[00:10:48] Saul Klein: Oh. That was Saul again. 

[00:10:52] Andreas Senie: No, that was Saul who sent it, and then I sent it to all of you, and then Maria, down in the bottom right, in green.

[00:10:58] Saul Klein: How was your day? 

[00:10:59] Anna Maria Kowalik: So actually, I've been doing some traveling myself, and I I had half a mind to connect with you, Saul. I was in San Diego for the, uh, ICSC Western Conference and, uh, actually moderated a panel there, uh, on capital markets and, uh, finance investments. And, uh, it was very well received. It was a great segment.

Uh, we probably had, uh, over 100 Uh, 50 people, uh, in, in the small theater area and they're standing room only. Uh, and I mean, it was just, it was awesome, but, uh, uh, I didn't go directly for the cons, uh, conference except to, to speak there, but, um, uh, I, so we weren't there enough time, uh, to connect and you might not have been available anyway, 

[00:11:55] Saul Klein: but, uh, how was the weather?

It was 

[00:11:58] Anna Maria Kowalik: horrible. The first day, uh, not horrible. It was just much cooler than expected and very cloudy. Some intermittent sprinkles. But that was the day of the Acapulco hurricane. So, uh, actually there was a lot of, uh, southwestern U. S. Uh, activity off the ocean and, um, and then we had one sunny afternoon, then that next day, which was Thursday and, uh, after the panel engagement, I was.

Uh, we were able to, uh, my husband came along. We did mixed business and pleasure. Uh, we, uh, went to La Jolla for the day and, and it was beautiful, just beautiful, but then I, I traveled from there directly to Texas, um, where I went to visit, um, Several properties that Inland Green, uh, recently had financed, uh, so there is a small historic town undergoing a downtown revitalization redevelopment, uh, of which we finance three of five buildings and the next two are just awaiting, um, a Thank you very Uh, their cue, uh, because, uh, the first three had to get completely, uh, done before moving on to the next two.

And so I was able to visit the properties, take photos, uh, take stock of, uh, what's been going on and the stabilization of the properties. Uh, it was just very exciting and very fulfilling. But Austin and San, and San Antonio. Rain. Rain. So, I mean, squalls were, I, I couldn't see five feet driving in front of me.

And I, it was just so unexpected for the southern US. I says, yeah, that, that, that figures, I go traveling and the weather gets bad, you know, . So 

[00:14:09] Andreas Senie: the, um, with the higher inflations for longer and everywhere you've been, and in traveling, it's, the weather's really not bad that bad. The industry's not that bad.

The fear don't, the fear that. Dan's talking about from what's happening with these commissions and salt standards. Investors are pursuing, and you just said it, Anna Maria, you're out there going to do more deals and make sure Inland continues building, right? Regardless of the weather, climate, and or otherwise, the 

[00:14:36] Saul Klein: industry.

Like 

[00:14:37] Anna Maria Kowalik: the postal service, you know, they use it. 

[00:14:40] Andreas Senie: That's, hey, realtors, brokers, investors. You can't stop moving them. Hey, we're Chicago. So 

[00:14:48] Anna Maria Kowalik: we're 

[00:14:48] Saul Klein: resilient. 

[00:14:50] Andreas Senie: I'm feeling like a red headed stepchild. You got to come to the northeast. I know you guys love the sunbelt and markets continue to be more favorable there in a lot of investment areas.

But San Diego over there with Saul, Connecticut, we're climbing the charts. Bring the National Association of Realtors economists back. Happy to talk about Chicago by far. 

[00:15:11] Dan Wagner: Aren't your colors for the fall, are they still really bright and beautiful? It 

[00:15:16] Andreas Senie: is beautiful here in the fall. The changing of the seasons is what I love, truly.

You know, I wouldn't live anywhere else. It's a beautiful place to be. That being said, changing the seasons, changing the colors. What does that actually mean for us in this industry at the end of 

[00:15:34] Anna Maria Kowalik: one thing that didn't change this week was the feds stance 

[00:15:41] Andreas Senie: on longer inflation for longer interest rates are here to stay.

Um, what ULI dubbed the Great Reset in one of their reports. And yet, in 20, let's see, 2010, we have the highest buy rating since 2010. So yeah, rain, sleet, or snow, I'm out there moving. 

[00:16:00] Dan Wagner: Well, today, the markets roared back. So that was a positive from the Fed's, uh, statements. But I know, um, when we were talking about the, uh, the interest rates, it's clearly, it's a hard, hard thing for, uh, the home buyer to, uh, be able to get that interest rate being at the level that it is, but you know, people have to move, but with commercial real estate, I know for a company like Inland, when we have a lot of, uh, dry powder, we're able to, um, wait for really, really good deals.

And I know I was talking to, uh, Mr. Joe Cosenza today. And he highlighted that he had a really good deal come through because somebody had to, um, refinance and they, they couldn't do it. And so they had to sell and we're able to get a really great deals, uh, because we got the cash. So if you have the cash, you know, that's going to be starting more and more getting some deals that are going to be unheard of.

What do 

[00:17:01] Saul Klein: you think? Saul? I think you're absolutely right. It's a time of opportunity, right? So as the economy changes, those people that are paying attention and can look for the opportunities are going to find the opportunity. So I agree with you 100%. I want to go back to one thing you mentioned, Dan, about Bob Goldberg and the changing of the guard at NAR.

I happen to be a friend of Bob Goldberg. As well. As a matter of fact, when they hired Bob at NAR, they put him on my team. Oh, wow. You asked Bob who trained him at NAR. The answer was I trained Bob and that was in the days of the Realtors information network before they spun off realtor. com. And so I've been a friend of Bob since then.

I've been involved in several projects. He was my, my overseer when I had the E pro contract with NAR. So I've done a lot with Bob over the years. And he, to me was the right guy at the right time when he came into that position. People don't know what he. Brought to the table and what he would continue to bring to the table.

It's unfortunate that all the different things that happened at NAR, but I wish Bob and, and Susan and the family nothing but the best. They've just done a tremendous job. And you're right, it's the Monty Python skit. And every time I hear people complain about paying $200 or $300 a year, I think of the, this Monty Python life of Brian's skit, where they're sitting around sitting there and they say, you know, well, what are the Romans ever done for us?

Somebody pipes up, he says. The aqueducts. Well, other than the aqueducts, what have the Romans ever done for us? The roads. Oh, well, other than the roads and the aqueducts, what have the Romans ever done for us? Well, sewage. Oh, well, the roads and the aqueducts and sewers when it goes on and on education, right?

Water and just like all of these things. And so N. A. R. National Association of Realtors is really underrated and typically the people who are the critics are people who've never put any time volunteering. It's a very unique. Realtor organizations are very unique. They're hybrid organizations where they have volunteers and they have staff and to be run effectively, you've got to bring the power of the volunteer and the power of the staff together to work in the best interest of the industry.

And that's what Bob was able to do. That's what NAR does for us. Most of it goes unnoticed. I know, Dan, you work in a directly all the time, political advocacy, all of the great. The interest rate deduct the interest deductions that we get that the survival of 1031. I mean, the list is amazing. And yet when it's hard, hard times when people see, uh, Chink in the armor, then they want to come out of the woodwork and they want to criticize.

And, uh, no, it's a great organization. I've been a member for 47 years or something and uh, somebody asked me the other day, how long will you be a member in the answer until they put me in the ground. I'll be a realtor. Me too. I 

[00:19:53] Dan Wagner: couldn't agree with you more, Saul. The, the other aspect of all this is, you know, at the local state, national level where it's a three-way agreement makes it so powerful because the, the general public doesn't understand that many times.

It's the realtors that are stating in the breach to be able to, to defend off the elected officials that wanna try to really destroy our private property rights. And you have Mm-Hmm. . Um, at the local municipal level, you have crazy, um, you know, different, um, municipal laws that want to try to do zoning.

That's going to take away somebody's, uh, value of their property. And there's, there's just so there's, could be a list that could go on for the rest of the night of stuff that local associations, state associations, and of course, the national association is done at the federal local and state level. And.

I'm very, very concerned about that because that, um, that network of realtors with 1. 5 million people, the money that goes into, um, with the RPAC and with our ability to have the staff. That are all over, you know, across the United States at all these different levels is very much concerning because I know, um, I just was talking to some, um, some local, um, officials who are the AEs of some large associations and they're now having to figure out, you know, will we budget?

What do we, do we start thinking about reducing staff? Do we, I mean, so there's a lot of things along those lines that are, um, really coming up and I'm, uh, I'm very, very concerned for. Uh, the future of, you know, related to this advocacy that we've been all a part of for years 

[00:21:35] Andreas Senie: without fear mongering and without plugging any are the entire show because they are wonderful and they did enjoy it.

Tremendous growth in new agents. There's so much friction that's going to happen. It's cyclical, right? And there is fear about by side commission commercial brokers have negotiated this our entire careers. Right. And while the MLS created this beautiful standard that Rezno is now doing in the digital side and the data dictionary, make everyone on the same page.

I don't think this is the end of buyer broker not to open that. And I don't think it's certainly not a, it may be a chink, but I don't think it's a weakness in NAR that's come out. It's just growth of regulation. It's changes and adjustments. People come after what they don't understand or they feel is, isn't important because they don't know how valuable it has been to your point, everything they've done, the road, sanitation.

It is a roadmap to grow in this space. There are past presidents all over this call for their local commercial chapters, as well as. you saw on the residential side. So you 

[00:22:33] Saul Klein: make a, you bring up this point kind of, it's like the elephant in the room. There was, there's these, there's this litigation that we're dealing with in the world of MLS.

And it's important to note it note that NAR, the National Association of Realtors doesn't have an MLS. So it does not, there is no national MLS, but what you've got is you've got pretty much local MLS as a regional MLS as multiple listing services, but they, and they follow the guidelines set forth by the National Association of Realtors because what NAR has done for us and done for MLS is it create this great marketplace for real estate is by creating guidelines, which are pretty much like best practices, um, If your MLS follows those, then they get the insurance coverage offered by the National Association of Realtors.

So it makes sense for local MLSs to follow the rules of NAR. So what recently in the last couple of years, there are three major lawsuits and then a big one against NAR by the Department of Justice. And those three are, uh, Merrill in Illinois against 25 of the biggest MLSs in the country and all of the big.

uh, real estate firms that you can think of a name. And then there's a smaller one in New England, actually, MLS pin. That's the multiple listing service property information network, kind of the Boston area, New England area. And that's a separate case. And then there's a third case in Missouri, and that's sits or Burnett.

And the big news in the industry is that the sits or Burnett case, the jury ruled in two hours and 24 minutes against actually held the plaintiff's library. And who are the plaintiffs? They're like Remax, Keller Williams, Anywhere, which is Century 21, Coldwell Banker, ERA, right? A number of franchises. And, um, or is it Home Services of America?

These brokerage firms, these franchises, franchises really, and the National Association of Realtors and found that they were liable for, uh, violation of the Sherman Antitrust Act for the transactions, class action, sellers were the plaintiffs and to go back five years and recover and damages and to the amount of something like 1.

75 billion. And because it's antitrust, it's treble damages. So 5 billion, uh, charge against organized real estate. And of course, NAR is going to appeal it. We'll see where that goes. But in the meantime, that creates some issues. And what you have to know historically is that the target is not the amount of commission.

While people might say that the fact is you could enter a dollar into the MLS for years, and you could actually. Uh, enter zero in because that offer of compensation and NAR recognizes the offer of compensation is just an offer and it could be zero and but the structure is that the MLS has been since 1996 a unilateral offer.

of compensation. And what the plaintiffs are saying is just that offer of compensation skews commissions because buyers don't negotiate, sellers think they have to offer commission. And so that skews it. And so that's the big issue. And all of these pieces are around the offer of compensation. That's what the DOJ would like to eliminate.

Nobody wants to admit that. That's what they want to eliminate. It goes back many, many years. And, and the offer of compensation has only been around since 1996. That's what a lot of people don't know. So this thing that everybody is saying is the, is the, the, the enemy, the offer of compensation, which is inflating commissions, the fact is it's only been around since 1996, prior to 1996, the.

The compensation vehicle for MLS was an offer of sub agency. So prior to 1996, the MLS was not an offer of compensation. It was an offer of sub agency. And so if you belong to the MLS, which he says, I belong to the MLS. I take a listing. I get an agreement from the seller. I put my listing in the MLS and any of you that want to sell my listing, you'll represent my seller.

the way I represent my seller. And then of course, you're entitled to part of the commission because I represent the seller and you represent the seller. And so that was the compensation vehicle of the MLS. It was an offer of compensation. And what that meant though, was buyers had no representation. And they didn't.

And agents knew that. Everybody knew, you say, who do you represent in a real estate transaction? And you might remember this day, you say, well, I represent the seller. And then he asked me, why do you represent the seller? I didn't often know, but the reason they represented the seller was they belonged to the MLS and the MLS was unilateral offer of sub agency.

And then in 1988, California passed the first agency disclosure law. And so now we had a situation where we had to disclose to buyers who we represented in a transaction. So a lot of times agents don't learn about the forms. That they have to present to people, and that was the way it was in California.

And in California. The way you can represent, uh, people in real estate transactions, you can represent the seller exclusively. You can represent the buyer exclusively, or you can represent the seller and the buyer's dual agent. And so you had to make this disclosure. You have to say, here's the way it works in California.

I can represent the buyer, I can represent the seller, I can represent both. And since I don't have the listing, agents thought, well, since I don't have the listing, I guess I represent the buyer. And so they would check the box and said they represented the buyer exclusively. Well, the fact is when they checked that box and they signed that disclosure agreement, they were really documenting.

An undisclosed dual agency because they didn't represent the buyer exclusively by virtue of them belonging to the MLS. They represented the seller. Now they represent told the seller they represented them and they told the buyer they represented them and that's the divided agency. So the MLS had a change when agency disclosure.

Came along and the change was we moved the compensation vehicle from an offer of sub-agency to an offer of compensation, and, and NAR adopted that around 1996. So it's been good for years. Nobody's complained about that side of it. And it's only recently and it's been a hot market, right? A lot of reasons why it's come up now.

And so now we've got people fighting what was put into place as an evolutionary change to MLS, which was there for the benefit of consumers, right? We brought this thing and it was to benefit consumers and everybody thought that was a great idea. Now everybody's protected. Now people are, it's being disclosed and now that's being attacked.

Right. And it's being successfully attacked. And I believe what will happen is I think that you'll probably see the offer of compensation disappear from MLS is I don't care what anybody says, but that doesn't mean the MLS isn't valuable. That doesn't mean that it doesn't offer a service. We have to change our conversation a little bit cooperating with other people.

That makes a lot of sense. Creating a platform for that to take place. That makes a lot of sense. being able to market prop be some other fundamental So MLS is not dead. Was i said the rumors of my dea MLS is not dead. MLS is c The way it evolved in 1996 and prior to that. But it's big news in the industry.

'cause people think, well now buyers aren't gonna get represented. No. We'll figure out a way that that takes place. Didn't you mention Dan in in the commercial world or Andrea? That's the way it works in the commercial world. People figure out. Right. How they get the representation that they need. People get paid.

We're gonna figure all this out and it, but what it creates is opportunity for the first people to figure it out. 

[00:30:17] Dan Wagner: So first people, go ahead. So my other question to you is, do you think that there, the MLS is gonna be decoupled then with the association and you can just go and. Anybody can just join the MLS and not have to join an association and what does that do to the associations?

[00:30:35] Saul Klein: Simple answer is yes, I do. I'm actually an advocate for that because it's been that way in California since 1978. Oh yes. Okay. Yeah. In California, you don't have to belong to the Association of Realtors to access the MLS. The legal case was Paulson versus Marin County, and what they said was, that's illegal tying.

You can't force membership in one group when what's also necessary to be successful is membership in another group. And then there was a settlement. in, uh, called the Thompson case, which affects Florida, Alabama and Georgia. And so in those three states as well, you don't have to be a realtor to access the MLS.

So we already, and then other states have actually taken that on, uh, and said, you know what, we're going to make that the rule too. And in here in California, I think probably 90 percent of the people, uh, who are members of our MLS are also realtors. They don't have to be. Right. But they are why they find a value proposition, so, so I don't think that that in and of itself is gonna hurt organized real estate, and I'm an advocate for separating the MLS from the Okay.

Associate. I think that benefits there's particularly now with the litigation that's in the air that protects both sides. Sure. Okay. If you have tied together, then one side's liable for the other side, and you could have. Issues that you don't want to deal with. So I think it's a good idea for the MLS to be separate from the Association of Realtors.

And I believe that our, as we talked about earlier, our associations of realtors do an amazing job. They're the really the only entities that protect private property rights. Absolutely. We actually get volunteers, people that give their time and their blood, sweat, and tears to figure these things out. To protect everybody who buys and sells real estate, so there's huge value.

Now, we might have to yell a little bit louder about all the things that get done, but I believe firmly in the value proposition of organized real estate, even without the MLS being tied directly to it. sa it is incredible 

[00:32:38] Dan Wagner: to have you on this show. You are, yeah, 

[00:32:41] Andreas Senie: wind you up, and you're wondering why they asked you to talk about the history of the M LSS at this conference instead of the tech.

It's clearly passionate. Point point, even though you helped open or activate 700, MLSs is probably a better word, nationwide. Was that the number or there are today? 300 

[00:32:57] Saul Klein: was, yeah, now we're down, we're down to a much lower number there. Were actually over a thousand at one time and there's like 529 now and there're probably gonna be, everybody's predicting fewer MLSs in the future technology and, and I was, happened to be lucky enough to be there when somebody.

started to happen and got to travel around, got to talk to people, got to kind of make the case for the use of the internet and how that would be a value to everybody if they used it. So, um, no, I didn't create the MLSs, but I got to. I, I, like, I had dinner in the creator's house, right. , I got to go to dinner 

[00:33:37] Andreas Senie: with them and the first subscribers in different states and, and so on from the book to the wires, , so

[00:33:43] Saul Klein: to speak.

Yeah. We, we have 

[00:33:46] Dan Wagner: ed out here in, uh, Illinois, and that's a pretty strong one too. 

[00:33:49] Saul Klein: Yeah. I remember when Ed, we called an MLS of the world and uh, Jay Huffman, I think was the, one of the, one of the first leading. folks that brought em red together. Don't remember J. And, um, and then because you had a lot of little MLS.

That's right. And they brought it all together. And it was really for the benefit of all the realtors and brokers didn't have to join all these different MLS is and all these different lock boxes. And it was a great positive step. I believe the great positive. Absolutely. 

[00:34:20] Andreas Senie: And the MLS is, as you said it, they continue to evolve.

Now they incorporate a bunch of Allied technologies on the residential side, you can do valuations and other tech and software and they continue to layer. I mean, they're the original crack up in my mind, only on the reside in the standards organization. Right? So, yeah, that was a big push forward to get people's talking the same.

Those that don't understand data dictionaries, you know, got to map things up apples, oranges. Oh, wait, that's really the same thing. And that's what that did. And that's the MLS is probably the greatest shining example of that many different sources all trying to say the same thing. Not really doing it that well.

[00:35:01] Saul Klein: You know, in what fields get included in what fields don't give it, get included. Now, reso is a, is a, a, is an organization, it's a. org, right? So it's a nonprofit. So where does the money come to support it? And one of the places, the money that's come from to support reso and all of the great work it's done is, and they are.

And there's a big supporter of that. And again, I was at this recent conference here in San Diego last week, and it was real interesting because they're talking about adding fields. When do you decide to add a new field? What warrants being a new field? And one of the examples that came up was, you know, in Hawaii, miles to the volcano is an important field.

But is miles to the volcano something you need to enter that everybody needs to do it? And another one was pickleball. How many pickleball? Because picture pickleball courts be a field or it was. Well, pickleball might just be a fad. Remember racquetball and right? So it's like there's a lot of thought that has to go into creating the right fields and the right designations and making it so it can be adopted locally, right?

Because things are different at the local level. And yet you want to make it a standard as somehow it can reach upward and into broader audiences. So no, it's It's more complex than people think. Certainly, and 

[00:36:24] Andreas Senie: the history is wider. Go ahead. I was just going to say the IDX feed over to you, Becca, to try to round you out, because as the, uh, and then Capital, it is hard to create platforms.

I can attest. Go on. 

[00:36:38] Saul Klein: Well, actually, listening to Saul and thinking about all of the support that NAR does give technology, It just reminded me of like the conversations that I got to have with Bob Gillespie at, at and the Reach 

[00:36:53] Andreas Senie: class Yeah's Reach 

[00:36:55] Saul Klein: Pretech when we were at Pretech, and then I got to see the folks from Rockport, val at uh, C five also.

So watching NAR support of emerging technologies is one of, actually one of my favorite things that NAR does. So I am very grateful, very, very grateful for the advocacy piece. We're in Chicago. We are a highly, uh, contentious right now. 

[00:37:18] Anna Maria Kowalik: Uh, but like 

[00:37:21] Saul Klein: things that are near and dear to my heart is watching how NAR really promotes and supports and, uh, really fosters technology innovation.

And I love that there's a strong history. 

[00:37:34] Andreas Senie: Well, actually, that's a I teach continuing ed, on moments and I'm talking through any a are brokers that operate Association of Realtors. don't belong to an MLS. T special commercially, but kick out of, well, you kn to thank everyone here in who belong to the National Association of Realtors for paying for realtor property resource, paying for the tool that I used to get business out from you.

And they go, what? And, you know, any art has been essential in providing and pushing and promoting. So if we get them to promote more, Anna Maria would be out of her position, but it really is incredible. When you look at this, 

[00:38:19] Dan Wagner: well, Anna Maria, remember, um, C PACE got started in Illinois with the help of the Illinois 

[00:38:24] Saul Klein: realtors.

[00:38:25] Anna Maria Kowalik: Yes, this is correct. Absolutely, because, uh, of course, the Inland Real Estate Group of Companies was very instrumental in, in helping draft and pass the legislation and, uh, that was with the assistance of, uh, Illinois Realtors. So, absolutely. And that was just five short years ago. 

[00:38:49] Saul Klein: Wow. 

[00:38:50] Anna Maria Kowalik: It's probably, you know, let's say six because, you know, there's time that it takes to get legislation up and going and through all of the various channels.

And so six or seven years back, people started doing this. And then five years ago, it was. Enacted finally. So 

[00:39:11] Saul Klein: Well, 

[00:39:11] Dan Wagner: and it's been amazing, Maria, to see, um, you, you go everywhere, hither and Yan to give people the understanding of how this works. Yeah. What, what have you learned best about this thing? 

[00:39:22] Anna Maria Kowalik: Well, you know, uh, education is very important.

Because, you know, I, and I say this time and again, uh, CA is not something that you can advertise on a billboard or look up on an MLS listing, , or, you know, anything like that. You, you have to just go out, talk to people, answer questions, shake hands. Um. Uh, you know, win trust and, uh, uh, and basically, you know, try to, um, uh, show how this tool is unique in being able to help people do projects that they might not otherwise consider, uh, because of so many, uh, other restrictions and, uh, uh, in conventional lending and, uh, and like, and so, uh, having that direct conduit to, uh, private equity financing, uh, you know, the, the smaller commercial property owner particularly, uh, might not have, uh, another way to access these types of funds.

And so CPACE makes it available, uh, and, and very readily. So. It, it is a wonderful tool, and, and that's what I've learned and, and that's what I try to, uh, use as I go forward and educate, uh, people on the product, on the process and, and of course on the individual programs state by state, because Inland Green Capital, uh, can finance anywhere across the US where there's a, um, uh.

a statute enabled and then a program in place to be able to facilitate, uh, that state's particular statutes. And some are very much more restrictive than others. And so you have to understand all the nuances and be able to navigate those programs to even get the financing done. So, uh, Uh, as I say, the simplest, most complicated product out there, because it's just meant to be easy, quicker, uh, uh, available, uh, private investment in private projects, kind of funding to make sustainable, uh, sustainability, uh, uh, Prada programs and, uh, and, um, what do I want to say?

And projects get done into the finish line. And, and yet there's so much back end stuff. And that's where you need the experts like us to be able to help navigate 

[00:42:01] Andreas Senie: that. And inland isn't just responsible or didn't just have their hand in this back end stuff. I mean, the tech became evolved into the DST. So I'll have to evolve the book as well as others.

There's a lot of innovation and evolution that happens throughout. And you guys still use brokers, correct? Cross everyone on the screen. We're all being hired and we'll continue to be hired just to be clear to anybody tuning in. But C PACE is funding retails in its prime. It's an exciting time. Car washes are still making a buck or two over there to solve and the evolution there and development's going to keep going.

C PACE is a, is near and dear to the world, right? We want to get to those net zero carbon emissions and C PACE helps you get there and look good to the new, the younger investors who want to care. About about how and what you're building the future, more so than just your mission statement. And who 

[00:42:54] Anna Maria Kowalik: doesn't want to save money?

Basically, you know, it comes down to the green, really, because, uh, you know, if you're saving in utility expenses, which is not so much of a problem for us here in the Midwest, we probably have some of the lowest electricity rates anywhere in the country. Uh, but in places like where Saul lives and, and, uh, Uh, you know, and the, and the southern areas, the Sunbelt that we've been talking about earlier, uh, you know, the, the utility cost is quite high and so, uh, it's, you know, it can translate into money, into, uh, uh, commercial property owners' pockets, uh, you know, to improve the properties to, to make them more efficient.

So, absolutely. It's dollars and 

[00:43:44] Saul Klein: cents. 

[00:43:46] Andreas Senie: Keeping the projects moving, especially now if they can't move on some of the bigger initiatives. Keeping the workers there working and things thriving. It's not a bad way to move or else, you know, people like Inland and not that you come calling, but others will be there ready to take that project.

If you stall out, it's opportunistic. Inland is always buying, which is why I can say that. Yes, absolutely. It's always buying, which is why I can say that, but you know what it is. I go, you know, I see retargeting. I see Inland all day on my browser. I'm covered in different news articles and it's always there.

And it's really just the cookie that's on my computer because technology allows the marketing to follow me around. I get that. So I really don't think you are everywhere, but you are almost anywhere. You know, 

[00:44:33] Anna Maria Kowalik: at one time they, they joked that, uh, one of our founding fathers, you know, who runs acquisitions, uh, was ready to purchase.

land on the moon, you know, because, uh, we're running out of places where we hadn't invested. 

[00:44:48] Andreas Senie: So, well, that's an interesting one. The MLS does not allow you to advertise. There's no standard of advertising into the, into this big universe that exists. As far as I know, you are either a partner providing value or not.

Uh, Inland could be your best. Biggest sponsor, you know, nudge, nudge, maybe . 

[00:45:08] Saul Klein: Well, you think about, so that's an interesting thought. So, MLS multiple listing service, that's the one place that people who sell real estate go every day. Mm-Hmm. . Every cap. They go to this place and they log in. So the most valuable internet real estate in the world to people who are involved in products that revolve around real estate, um, is inside the MLS.

If you could somehow advertise inside the MLS. Now, Years ago, that was a pipe dream. But nowadays you actually can in some MLSs, and so we see companies like escrow companies and title companies and law firms where you log into the MLS and you actually see that advertising of the. People who provide services and it makes sense.

And it also adds revenue to the MLS, which overall, theoretically, if you can bring up revenue in from other sources, you can decrease the cost of the membership, some really membership, but belonging to the multiple listing service. Right. So we do see that a little bit, right. More now than we ever saw before.

And how do you 

[00:46:21] Dan Wagner: throw in for commercial folks, co star and everything else? 

[00:46:25] Saul Klein: Oh boy. Yeah. So, well, so costars is but giant company that has its own idea of what it wants to do. And part of what is what all the big companies want, they want to be first point of contact to people who are interested in buying and selling real estate.

Because if you can be first point of contact, the technology is actually in place to give you the The platform now to be able to go from first point of contact to getting a finding a property, to getting a loan, to the loan being resold in the secondary market, to the loan being packaged and then the loans being sold to other entities and servicing.

And so from start to finish, that's a real, real important value chain. And so companies like costar, they realize it. As a matter of fact, they're doing great. How do you see their latest financials? Um, they're doing phenomenally well. So CoStar, they got this idea and they have homes.com and they got a consumer engagement engine and then all of these different platforms in place.

You know, who else does that? Zillow? Yeah, so Zillow's kind of competitor in that place. And then another big competitor in that place is ice, the Intercontinental Exchange, which most people never heard of ice, but they're the company that owns the New York Stock Exchange. Really? Yeah. And so they just recently, so they've been putting the place pieces in place.

They spent over $30 billion putting the pieces in place to create this start to finish. And, uh, they're in competition. People might not think so with. CoStar and with, uh, Zillow and they recently closed a deal on Black Knight, and so Black Knight for like 13 billion. So ICE recently purchased Black Knight.

Black Knight owns a number of things. One thing being. Paragon. Paragon is an MLS system because most MLSs, they don't have their own software. They buy it from the big companies and then the MLSs charge a fee and that gives the people who belong to the MLS access to the software that allows them to add, edit, change properties that are for sale, properties that have sold.

And so Black Knight owns Paragon, which has like, I'll just make this up, but probably close to true, 200 contracts with multiple listing services. And part of the power of a multiple listing service that's yet untapped is the fact that when a property goes on, what's the first place people know about it?

That the MLS knows about it. When a property gets sold, what's the first, before the county recorder even knows about it, who knows about it first? The MLS knows about their rules. You got to enter in that this sold pending, right? So all of that data about the sale of a property, and you know, all of that data, that comprises something that some people might call a spot market.

And the spin and a spot market is really important. That's what things are selling for right now. And a spot market is important because with a spot market, you can then create a futures market. And if you can create a futures market, you can start to hedge. Um, your investments in different category. You can buy futures and a lot of different things, but you can't real estate.

It's kind of tough. And the reason is there's nobody put together a spot market yet. And so if a spot market can be created on the real estate side of futures market can be created and that lets capital investors. Um, hedge some of their investing and then maybe you wouldn't need the GSEs to the degree that we need them now because you could bring more private capital.

Into the finance world. So you mentioned co star and I just had to throw that out there. There's a big deal. He's a big deal in what they're doing. Right. And it's kind of like, we don't pay attention to it. At least it's included. And then somebody says, no, but look, go look at that. Go watch, look at what, this is what they're going to do next.

This is the next piece they're going to acquire. And then when it happens, it kind of opens my eyes a little bit. So I think co star is a player. And Right. And they got home. They wanna be, oh yeah. They're sure. 

[00:50:30] Andreas Senie: Yeah. Well, they're a player commercially and have been forever. Andy Florence created an incredible engine and he collected data as fast as he could.

Real-time data in real estate is 30 days because of county records, because of availability. The only place to Saul's point, it's not 30 days, it's in the MLS, it's three days or 48 hours for some, you have to update, it's, it's part of your terms for being a member and using it. See, 

[00:50:54] Saul Klein: I actually have this idea that the MLS data, MLS properly organized, the information is so valuable, it's kind of like, I can go online and trade stocks for free.

And the reason I can go online, right? You got to go on and trade stocks for free. And the reason I can do that is because more valuable than the fee to trade is the knowledge that I'm trading and send the big hedge funds and the capital, they want to know how much trading is taking place when, and they'll even give up the fee.

Because more important to them is to be able to get a one or two percentage point lift on a 50 billion loan portfolio, right? That's the big money to them. And so I trade for free online. And I never think of why do I get to trade for free? I just think, this is great. I don't have to pay a fee to trade Apple or Microsoft.

I just trade it. That didn't cost me anything. There's a reason because that not that data is valuable. Well, same thing in the housing market. That data is valuable. And at some point in time, people are going to figure this out. People already have started to figure this out, and they're going to be able to capture that information.

And then if the MLS is are smart, they'll say, Why don't you just pay for our whole back end? And all of the software costs and we'll let you have the transactional data and now it won't cost anybody to put their listings into the MLS, right? So there's an evolution, the step forward, where it goes and how fast, I'm not sure, but the writing's on the wall.

[00:52:28] Andreas Senie: And if you decouple it, if you decouple the MLSs from NAR, CoStar sure is looking pretty there, waiting for that information. Just pointing it out. Neo4j. com, Homes. com, Partners. com Yeah. Um, we're gonna have you on for sector interview again because this is not enough time to talk about everything that's going on.

It's a great 

[00:52:49] Dan Wagner: idea. It's a great 

[00:52:50] Andreas Senie: idea. Really? The and buy shares and ice free stock tip. Can I say that on the show? Um, 

[00:52:59] Saul Klein: there's no telling with timing is everything. So while we can look, we can all look and see what companies are doing, we don't know how successful they're going to be when. So to value the stocks kind of tough, right?

[00:53:12] Andreas Senie: Which is why we invest in real estate because as long as you hold it long enough, they will appreciate 

[00:53:16] Saul Klein: value. 

[00:53:16] Dan Wagner: My compliance department would not like me talking about any of that. 

[00:53:20] Saul Klein: But, 

[00:53:22] Andreas Senie: uh, well, let's see. Yes. The, uh, so now that's, we're going to zip that. There's a lot going on out there. Go to the sector interview when everyone's not on for compliance, but returns, investors, and so forth, you will like him out with a great report.

Chicago 29 out of 80. Cities, right? Doing it's top of the charts, even though it's not in the Sunbelt per se. At least not my Sunbelt's not hot enough. You guys have snow on the on the ground, but deals are happening. What is, uh, we're at the top of the hour. What is the one takeaway from each side that we're gonna give to our listener, which we are global.

There are many, go right ahead. So 

[00:53:56] Saul Klein: to my right, so I think with all of the negative news that you see surrounding residential real estate. And I say this all the time, right? Look for the opportunity because there are great opportunities. It doesn't matter whether you're a broker, an agent, an investor, a buyer, a seller, there's opportunities.

And in some cases, opportunities you never thought of before. And it might even be things that you looked at. From a negative perspective that really, if you just tilt it a little bit, it appears to be an opportunity. So, this is affordable housing 

[00:54:30] Andreas Senie: out of the White House and all the money there. Yeah, full of opportunities.

Look for them. That's right. Back to the right. 

[00:54:39] Saul Klein: So, I would say that my... A key takeaway from today is to pay attention to emerging technology because there are evolutions of existing technology and there are emerging technologies that really are going to continue to help us build our businesses and help us evolve our businesses into the future.

So pay attention to what's out there and learn about it. If you don't have the opportunity to know all of the ins and outs of the MLS, watch Sol Sector Interviews. 

[00:55:11] Andreas Senie: Um, and yes, Google alerts, right? A lot of words get thrown around here very fast because there's a lot of people with a lot of insight. Uh, Google alerts are your friend.

I'm going to jump in and give you mine right now. If you don't know what ICE is, if you don't know capital markets, CPACE, whatever it is. Check in on what's happening, regulation, 

[00:55:28] Saul Klein: White House. So 

[00:55:30] Dan Wagner: my takeaway is organized real estate is very important and we all should be thankful for it and stay very actively involved with the National Association of Realtors, with your state association, with your local association.

And I will give a plug that, um, I'm going to Anaheim for the National Association of Realtors convention. Um, we get to see Tracy Casper to become the new president officially installed. Um, and we have the Inland Real Estate Group of Companies is hosting the Commercial Real Estate Cocktail Party on, uh, on Wednesday night.

So we're going to have a great time in Anaheim. And it's important that we all remember that organized real estate is where it's at and will continue to help all of us when we all come together and work together. 

[00:56:16] Andreas Senie: Fantastic. And then, uh, do you know the days of the Anaheim event? We'll put it in the show notes for everyone listening in.

Anyways, we don't have it off in 

[00:56:24] Dan Wagner: November. Well, it starts November 13th. I'm flying out on the 12th. It goes November 13th all the way from that week. 

[00:56:32] Andreas Senie: Stan, it's a contact industry. More people you contact, your network is always your net worth. My plug to Jonathan Stein over there at your offices. Thank you, Jonathan, for that tagline.

Maria. Um, well, 

[00:56:44] Anna Maria Kowalik: and my takeaway is knowledge is power. Look at all the wonderful information that was shared today. And, um, uh, as I stated on my, uh, panel out in San Diego last week, um, the fact is, if you have enough, Uh, information from various sources, uh, and, and have realistic expectations as to where the market's going to go, just being prepared.

So no matter what happens, whether or not we're going to go into another recession, whether or not, uh, things are going to improve, uh, you have enough. Knowledge and power to make the right decision and just remember that no matter what, the future is green. 

[00:57:34] Andreas Senie: I love that. Yeah, go. The future is green and your future is only going to get greener and better, right?

It's a sunnier day ahead. Tomorrow's a new day. As always, I want to thank you guys for joining, for hosting, for taking time to be here. It's an incredible show. We've grown tremendously over the years, and that is only increasing as we get older and smarter, some of us faster. The show is available anywhere.

You get your podcasts, Google, Alexa, Siri, simply ask for it by name. Crackle AI round table. Don't forget to scrub to YouTube where you can catch those prior, uh, sector expert interviews, as well as the rest of our past shows and other content. Do share rate and view us. Thank you again to our audience and mr Mendoza back there working the switch to make us all look good on all the different channels all at once I thank you to the national association of realtors still a card came remember my whole career great place to be It's contact support guys.

See us next month First Thursday at six. Thank you. Happy Thanksgiving, everybody. And happy Thanksgiving. Thank you, Jan.

[00:58:48] Dan Wagner: Thanks for tuning in 

[00:58:48] Saul Klein: to the real estate roundtable powered by 

[00:58:50] Andreas Senie: crack. Oh, AI, your source for the latest in real estate and technology for past episodes, sector interviews, and more great 

[00:58:56] Saul Klein: content, follow us on all social 

[00:58:58] Andreas Senie: media and YouTube at. CRE Collaborative. You can also find us anywhere you listen to podcasts.

[00:59:04] Saul Klein: Please like, subscribe, and share. It really does help. Thanks again for tuning in, and we'll see you at the next 

[00:59:10] Andreas Senie: Real Estate Roundtable.