CRECo.ai Presents_ The Real Estate Roundtable - Thur January 4th, 2024 

[00:00:00] Andreas Senie: Welcome back to this month's roundtable, your all in one comprehensive view of what's happening across the real estate industry, straight from some of the industry's earliest technology adopters and foremost experts across technology, marketing, brokerage, government policy, finance, cybersecurity, and construction.

As always, this is a three part show. Part one, introductions, what's new for each roundtable host in their unique sector. Part two, we'll dive deep and unpack the biggest shifts, biggest trends affecting our industry. And part three, what is the one thing you can take from each of us to do more business?

And outsmart your competition. I'm Andreas Senni, Founder of CRE Collaborative, Brokerage Owner, and Technology Growth Strategist for both the Non Profit and Profit Sectors. And joining me this month, none other than Rebecca Carlson, Founder, CEO of Carlson Integrated, Vice President of Nitecore. Becca, nice to see you as always.

As well as Anna Maria Kowalik, Director of Business Development, C PACE, All Things Going Green over at Inland Green Capital. Maria, always a pleasure. Welcome back to 2024. Darren Hayes, our resident cybersecurity guru, all things keeping us safe at night or up at night, depending on who you are. Pace professor and board member.

Nice to see you, Darren, here in 2021. As well as none other than Chris Abel and Dan Wagner. Chris Abel, membership director of Associated Builders and Contractors, boasting a five year plus over 90 percent retention rate and year on year growth, which we're going to unpack a bit, Darren. So Chris, thanks for tuning in.

And last, but certainly not least, Dan Wagner. Senior VP, the guy out there lobbying for us, or rather understanding the lobbying and communicating it better to the rest of us and helping us all grow in the industry. Dan, nice to see you. Saul Klein will join us a bit late today, but otherwise, guys, I'm so excited to be back here in 2024, although I'm getting the worst snowstorm in 20 years, in about an hour.

So, that all being said, what's happening? Becca, you're to my right, so I'm going to work the carousel. What's happening here in 2024 for you? Talk us through. 

[00:03:02] Bekah Carlson: Well, my mantra this year is more in 24, and when I think about what that more entails, uh, more networking, more relationship development, more learning, and certainly more doing and helping clients expand their reach and achieve their goals through different mediums than they may have been working for.

in in the past. So I'm ve Here we are. First podcast of the year. Let's 

[00:03:33] Andreas Senie: go more more than 24. I love it. Yeah, my expectation because I don't set resolutions for New Year's. I set expectations for the year is I expect and I am going to work towards doubling our audience for over 3000 tune ins and downloads monthly, which is incredible.

That's the top 15 20 percent globally. Bring to Google and we just keep growing. People keep tuning in. So we're doing something right. So more in 24, I think is spot on. And the guy who knows a lot about more on this call today is Chris Abel. 90 percent retention at his association and growth year on year.

I can't get a contractor to show up to a single job, but apparently they're not only show up for you, but they pay 

[00:04:14] Chris Able: you. They're too busy. They're too busy at my cone in my office. So no, it's, uh, I appreciate it. It's been, it is a really good, uh, way to end 2023 kickoff 2024 strong. Um, It's exciting. You know, um, Dan could probably attest to this good going into an election year.

So, uh, contractors, especially all business owners are starting to look at what they're, how they're going to spend their dollars, who's going to help them regards in regards to lobbying and all that sort of stuff. So my, um, I'm kind of with you, Andreas. We spoke yesterday. I don't really do the resolution thing to too much.

It's more just how can I continue doing the things that were working last year and just kind of keep moving forward. And then I saw the coolest quote came across one of my social media pages, um, a couple of days ago. And I want to share with, uh, with all you had said, I, I never had to unscrew another person's light bulb in order for me to shine.

And I really, really, I had to save it. And I'm like, I really liked that one because, um. You know, I just like the idea of helping people will help lift each other up, including everyone on this call and just keep everything moving forward. Uh, understanding that we're all in this, in this ride, crazy ride together.

So, and Andreas, you and I will ride out that storm together. Cause I know we're, we're both in the same area. So 

[00:05:35] Andreas Senie: I'm happy to hide out at home. I could use a break. I've been working hard. Um, more is not necessarily more. I want streamlined and efficient. That's my goal. Uh, and a Maria, you're, you're up there on the right.

We've got more is more and retention going crazy at, at ABC. And that plug to Dan about regulation advocacy and, and so on ABC does a lot in that area too, right? So that's why we joined. That's why we show up. That's why we belong. We really unpacked this a bit over the last two months with Dan and Saul back and forth on associations and then they are, but.

Over to you Ann Maria. Mortgage money's getting cheaper. I don't need a C PACE loan anymore. 

[00:06:14] Anna Maria Kowalik: Oh, you always need a C PACE loan if you're doing any kind of green improvement. And so, uh, from a, you had A, B, C, and here's IGC. Uh uh. talking about sea pace and, uh, hopefully what a great year this is going to be for sea pace.

We had a lot of uptick at the end of last year, and, um, I'm sorry I couldn't make last month's, uh, uh, session, but, uh, certainly, you know, uh, we Had a lot of deals that wanted to get closed, but you know how that happens, uh, you know, they don't quite make all of the deadlines and everything. So we're starting out January with several closings and, uh, you know, continuing, uh, on into the year, uh, with a hopeful, uh, attitude.

So, uh, I think 24 is going to be a good year. 

[00:07:08] Andreas Senie: But what you focus on expands, it will be the opportunities are there. Yes. You know, the mantra that we've been working on, at least in our offices is in our offices is a being hyper focused on staying awake while everyone else is falling asleep at the switch.

Let everybody else step back and we'll go find those opportunities. We'll work with the banks. We'll work on the distressed properties. We'll work with the municipalities. Investing in tools and processes, you know, is the, is the white house over there asleep, Dan? What are you guys doing in January, 2024 on the policy side and so on?

Well, 

[00:07:44] Dan Wagner: it's good to see everybody and, uh, out there in, uh, the land of, uh, of, of knowledge of the internet. I wanted to first highlight Andreas. I'm not a lobbyist, so I am an advocate. So I gotta keep highlighting that. Cause that's, there's a big difference between the two. Um, But the one of the things I want to kind of focus a little bit on is to say, uh, this time of year, you do your resolutions.

You also are grateful. And I got to tell you, I'm grateful for all of you. And I'm grateful for Andreas for, um, and Reagan for, for putting this together. And Andreas, I think you should take a moment from the beginning of the year. Where did we start with people watching this group and where are we now? I think that would be an interesting 

[00:08:29] Andreas Senie: question.

So, uh, this podcast simulcast streamcast, whatever the kids are calling it these days, this gathering of like minded people to talk and share with the industry has been a four year progression growth, uh, trajectory from literally the first episode. Two and zero, uh, zero subscribers, zero tune ins to an average of 150 on LinkedIn Live.

3000 tune ins are downloads monthly across five continents. Anywhere you get your audio, everywhere you get your social media. We are on our 77th app that includes sector interviews and other interviews and, and hat tip to fried on tech for the early days when I was a guest host on his show. So we have just continued to grow and as soon as, um.

We get a little, uh, a little more focused on Twitter and Facebook. We'll figure those out, too, but we went where our audiences and I don't have to tell one person who just joined about audiences and networks. So welcome back. Glad you joined for this month. Happy to have you. But we went, we focused on LinkedIn on purpose.

More is more except as Becca will relate in marketing where too much information and trying to track too much, just bogs you down. Failure is the, I'm sorry, perfection. It's not attainable. It's about optimizing and improving on the daily. So we focused on LinkedIn this year. We're going to focus more on Facebook and YouTube growing out that, uh, the social influencer status.

What do you think, Dan? You joined two years ago now. 

[00:10:03] Dan Wagner: Yes. Yeah. I, this has been great and I've loved being able to, uh, to become friends with my fellow co hosts, um, which is really good. I did want to highlight. So, so my, my big thing is that everybody in, in, uh, the world of Washington is waiting to see what's going to happen.

Uh, for the election, because in 2025, we will have to have tax reform is going to come up. So, um, as you remember, the Republicans were in charge with Donald Trump and they were able to do tax reform, uh, with for 10 years, cause they can do it for a reconciliation bill. And then it looked everything, everything sunsets on 2025.

So the whole thing of what happens with the 10 31, like an exchange and, um, it go on from there is all going to be up for grabs. We just had a contingent from the real estate round table. Go meet in the White House to try to explain to President Biden's folks, the importance of the 1031. And I, uh, I got some facts and figures I'll get into later, but, uh, those are a couple of things I'm going to highlight.

[00:11:08] Andreas Senie: So you're hitting the ground running. You're definitely awake at the switch. 

[00:11:12] Dan Wagner: Oh my gosh. I'm, I'm already trying to figure out what, but, uh, I'm going to be in Utah the Farm Bureau Convention, and then I got to get on a plane and fly out to Washington for the Real Estate Roundtable. Yeah, so travel plans and my mileage points start racking up again.

So we're all good. 

[00:11:31] Andreas Senie: I love it. Um, and thank you guys for coming in and being a part of this, growing it together. It has been an amazing journey and it's only going to get better. Although I don't get to go to the White House. I haven't been invited yet, Dan. Just throwing that out there. We could do a show at the White House, that would be a dream.

That all being said, and we'll get Chris's crew in there to set it up and build it out of ABC, I hope. And maybe even Darren there to secure it digitally. Chris, your end of the fence? How are things here in January? Oh, on my 

[00:12:04] Chris Able: end. Mm-Hmm. . Oh, uh, things are moving along really well, actually. I think the idea with, um, you know, all the stuff that we've been talking about for so long in regards to the, um, you know, the, the lack of workers and the supply stuff and all that.

It's just like anything else in the, in that space where, you know, when you're in any sort of crisis or any sort of turmoil where things kind of hit this, you know, a new normal and then they basically fall back. To normal. This is just what it is now. This is how, how everyone's working. So when I talk to contractors, which I've spoken to a ton over the past, uh, past Wednesday, the past two weeks, cause I've been been off.

But before that, no, one's really talking about it. Everyone is, is concentrating on getting themselves some project managers. Um, You know, grabbing one person at a time, building up their workforce the best they can and just kind of working with what they have. And if they have to collaborate with other contractors, then that's just what they're doing.

Um, seems like everyone is, is staying busy and something I mentioned that has continued from about three months ago is the idea of some of these, um. Commercial contractors looking to seek out some of the residential stuff a little bit more, not necessarily small jobs, one house at a time, but they're looking for developers who are either doing multifamily, um, situations, or they're going in and they're building 13, 14, 15, 20, 30 houses on one, on one lot and seeing if they could, you know, grab stuff up to, uh, To keep themselves busy and, um, and stay in that, you know, kind of in that, that, that private sector and instead of, uh, some of the, some of the public work that, uh, they're, to be honest with you, the marriage shop guys are having trouble, trouble snatching up here and there.

It's a lot, a lot of barriers 

[00:13:50] Andreas Senie: there. Well, but people are moving, money's there, you know, things were put in place, funds are released, projects are going, especially here in Connecticut, uh, road improvement, bridge improvement, there's so much to do out there, public, private. I, I, there's a few developers, few architects I've talked to, they've said, you know, I'm going to go be a contractor for the next year.

They made, they're making insane hourly rates and it's, it's no must, no fuss, show up and leave. Um, the guys that were, were coming on for 40 now demand 60. And up and up it goes with inflation. Wow, and I'm so excited to say this, our mortgage rates are down to six, two, five, six, five from seven and a quarter just last month.

And when we talk about cost of money, that's great. I mean, if I can get the workers there, which you say I can, and the cost of money is back to an elevated rate that's here for longer, that's not a big deal. That's a number we can pencil in and we can handle. As long, as long as our systems stay up to the task.

Darren, welcome back. Truly nice to see you. It's been some time here in 2024. I always, I think of you and I think back to the the Y 2K bug every once in a while when you join the show, and I wanna be like, let's talk about Y 2K, but it's 2024. We survived that. The industry is certainly surviving everything that's going on, although it seems to be rife with.

Internet dangers and phishing these days. How are you? Uh, 

[00:15:13] Darren Hayes: I'm doing well. Thanks. It's great to be here and happy new year to everyone. Um, yeah, lots going on in cyber security world. It never stops. Uh, we've, you know, saw a big release of personal identifiable information over the Christmas. It was called Leaksmas on the dark web where millions and millions of records were released Uh, by a number of different hackers.

So it's really, really important to monitor your information and see what's been breached. Uh, a lot of that is actually, Apple alerts you to that on your phone when your passwords have been compromised. So Take a look at those kinds of sources, or have I been pawned dot com to see if if your email address has been part of yet another breach and make sure that you continually change those, those passwords, um, you know, lots of intrigue going on, you know, a lot of these geopolitical events like that.

A couple of wars that are going on of note and the Taiwan election that's coming up, uh, is rife with cyber security attacks and lots of misinformation being spread on social media. So that's, that's particularly heightened at this point. Um, And the big topic for this year will continue to be, I guess, artificial intelligence and its impact.

Um, there's been a lot of benefits. We've been looking at how AI can identify where missing Children may be. Um, which is the A. I. Has been tremendous with that in terms of identifying places in the background, for example, where pictures of missing Children are taken. And so we've been able to use a I for that.

Um, one of the problems that we do have, though, is it's becoming more difficult to discern where legitimate pictures or actual real pictures versus fake pictures. And so there's lots of questions being brought up about how that's going to hold up in court and, you know, prosecuting individuals who Take children or, or share images and that kind of thing and, and, you know, whether these images can be proven to be real, or could they be created by AI?

So, so that's a big question out there and, and will be talked about in 2024. And then the other big thing out there that's that's been happening, which is didn't get a lot of headlines, but has been caused a lot of shockwaves are, you know, Google talking about their location information and how they're going to change capturing people's location and sharing that information with the government.

and potentially the end of what are called geofence warrants, which are used to identify suspects in killings and rape, um, and find many, many missing Children. And, uh, there's been a lot of talk about how, you know, eliminating these geofence warrants will help protect the privacy of many Americans. But A lot of people don't realize how, you know, it's being used to find missing children.

You know, we have about over 400, 000 children who go missing every year in this country, which is an astronomical number. Um, so, you know, there's, there's a lot of challenges that, uh, law enforcement and the government are facing in, uh, in 2024. 

[00:18:57] Andreas Senie: Meanwhile, well, and not to speak lightly of all the children missing and all the help geofencing has given there, but geofencing has helped a lot of other areas, construction, employee tracking, right?

There's so much you can do with geofencing. Is that also going away? Not to run down a rabbit hole? Or is the government just won't be able to use it as part of their process? 

[00:19:18] Darren Hayes: Yeah, I mean, the only way the government can access that information is with Probable cause with getting a warrant location information is deemed a search.

So there are, you know, strict guidelines and, and it's very limited in how they can access that information. So that seems to be going away now with, um, some recent decisions. And a lot of this started in California with pushes, uh, not only from Google and some social media companies, but also backing by civil, civil liberties organization.

Um, and so it's, it's, it's got to be problematic. I, I, I think that Google has talked about, you know, location information and, and helping secure people's. Privacy. But, but, you know, there's questions around that and how they're actually going to do that. And will they actually live up to to their kind of promises about not tracking the location of 

[00:20:19] Andreas Senie: individuals?

Well, and that's regulation, keeping pace with innovation, which we could talk days together. Saul, especially here, giving that he was here when the real estate listings came online, helped do that. Um, and he's literally sitting there active, caffeinated at the wheel. Taking charge of his market and Darren, I'm going to come back to you on the echo chambers and all the AI face, right?

Because really as an industry, I heard something that stuck with me just today. AI will not replace you. However, a realtor using AI, right? So, and that made sense to me and you really don't know what's real on the internet. I think this, all this technology is going to force us back together as people, which is fantastic.

Let's have a phone call. So you're there behind the wheel. Thanks for joining us remotely. Uh, and welcome. You're back from Paris and a big conference in December. What are your thoughts for January 2024, 76th episode? 

[00:21:17] Saul Klein: Well, first, it's great to see such a big group. 

[00:21:20] Andreas Senie: Oh, you didn't like just me last month?

[00:21:23] Saul Klein: Yeah, you know, no offense, but no, it's great to see everybody that we've been having conversations with over the last couple of years. And so having this big group is really great. I had a doctor's appointment and I jumped on here. I'm sitting in the parking garage. I'm lucky I've got the communication.

So you're right enough. I've talked to you. I got back from Paris. Big conference in MLS conference in Paris sponsored by the, the, uh, The NAR, so to speak, of, of Europe, uh, CEPI and, uh, and RISO, and really was interesting to talk about the fact that they don't have, uh, in most of the world, um, exclusive listings, and they don't have MLS, and here we are in the United States, everybody's doing everything to kind of destroy what there is of the MLS, the market, at least in my market in San Diego's great.

And, Um, and let's say great. It's, uh, you know, things sell and the market time is short. Now it's really still kind of a seller's market, uh, interest rates have come down and, and, uh, that just increases demand at this point. So prices don't really drop, at least in most marketplaces. And I started this week a new job.

It's kind of interesting. I'm almost 75 years old. And, and, uh, but I went back to work. I'm now the CEO of the multiple listing service in San Diego. We've got 12, 000 subscribers and, um, it's a really a big job in real estate here in San Diego, but it's like. What a great opportunity and a lot of fun to deal with people who I've loved for years.

And that's people who listen to sell real estate. So things are good where I'm sitting in a parking garage in La Jolla. I want to grow 

[00:23:01] Dan Wagner: up and be soft 75 years old and started a whole nother career. Oh my God. I wouldn't be useful. No, 

[00:23:08] Andreas Senie: it's a lot of fun. And your car is clean. I'm hoping right. You got the car wash still juice.

They're working out here in the snow. You know, the 

[00:23:15] Saul Klein: car wash is doing great. I was, if I was home, I found the picture I'm going to use as my background so that I've got the car wash behind me because part of the reason we're able to get to where we are today is the fact that we had the car wash and so there was a long

[00:23:28] Andreas Senie: term long 

[00:23:30] Saul Klein: term investment and um, there were times when the real estate market couldn't support me, but the car wash could.

And so, you know, having that That, uh, ace in the hole actually pays off and, uh, people should own more real estate. You know, we're all advocates of owning real estate and, and I'm living proof that, uh, it allows you the freedom to do the things that you want to do. 

[00:23:56] Andreas Senie: Well, generational wealth, right? Real estate is a tool.

It's, it's a safe investment as far as safe as they can get, especially given all the fake images out on the web, the fake information, the volatility that could happen in the market at a moment's notice. Real estate is pretty straightforward. It's going to rise. It's going to fall. It's cyclical. Your car wash has had, you've had your car wash long enough to go from what 17 percent rates all the way across the board, 14, 17 and back again.

[00:24:27] Saul Klein: Well, when we bought, when we bought the car wash, we bought it. We did an AI all inclusive trustee. You might be familiar with that. People call it a wraparound had two underlying bank of America loans on it. We gladly paid the owner 10 percent on that. And, um, Yeah, we've seen the ups and downs. But again, you structure your purchases so that you can withstand the longterm and you really don't have all that much to worry about over time.

And you mentioned, um, inflation, you know, there's going to continue to be inflation. I don't see any end to that over the next 10, 15 years. So real estate, real estate, real property assets just continue to make sense. And my mind always have for everybody just got to figure out a way to get into it. Right.

[00:25:11] Andreas Senie: And one property at a time. We did our first show. Now we're almost pushing 100. I mean, we'll hit 100 this year easily. So you get the first one and you keep going. And if you were to sell, you would obviously go into a 1031 exchange, right? Capital gains here are significant. So don't worry, Dan's there keeping the oil on to make sure you can do that.

Well, I'm, 

[00:25:31] Saul Klein: I'm glad Dan's there because, you know, people don't talk enough about 10 31 tax deferral exchanges, the, the ability to build your estate with pre tax dollars, to use the money that you owe to the government to continue to allow you to reinvest and reinvest. 10 31 is a great tool. And the way we got into the carwash.

was through a 1031. We bought a house, me and another guy. We sold a third of the house to another person. We bought a second house. We kept the first house as a rental. We then exchanged the rental property, uh, add a little cash, exchange it into the carwash. And there we sit and you're right. We're at a very low basis.

At this point in time, and if we sold it, we'd end up paying a lot of capital gains. The best thing to do is to die and let our kids have it, because they get elevated basis when that takes place. And so, all kinds of benefits, and you get to what Dan is working on, and that is understanding that the tax laws are designed For you to take advantage of and it's not about loopholes.

It's about using the laws to your benefit, but to do that, you really have to understand a little bit about it. And, um, it's 

[00:26:38] Dan Wagner: all your brilliance. And I got to tell you, this is, that's the whole thing. I wanted to highlight tonight is the, uh, the real estate roundtable, what to meet with the white house about that exact thing.

Cause the white house, uh, president Biden has always put into his budget to eliminate the 10 31. Or to cap it and we're trying to, you know, head them off at the pass and say, Hey, look, let's meet with you. So with the, we had a good contingent that met with the white house and one of the things they highlighted is that right now the current commercial real estate market is experiencing significant headwinds, you know, malls, strip shopping centers, office buildings, hotels are all distressed as lenders and capital markets restrict investment activity.

The 10 31 exchanges become particularly important. So we've seen, um, Marcus Amilichap did an analysis on real capital analytics data, which tracks commercial real estate transactions greater than 2. 5 million in the first half of 2023 to take the transaction count fell by 22. 1 percent below the first half of 2019.

But according to the Federation of Exchange Combinators, those are the folks who do the qualified intermediaries. The number of 1031 exchanges initiated increased nearly 15 percent from 17, 467 in the first half of 2019 to 20, 070 in the first half of 2023. So while CRE transactions have been down 22%, 1031 exchange transactions are up because Sal is absolutely right.

You're going to be able to use a 1031 as your tool to be able to help your distressed property. So, so we are. Advocates in Washington were able to tell the White House. This is one of the most powerful tools you have in your arsenal to save the commercial real estate world, which as everyone on this call knows is the tsunamis coming with, uh, these interest rates with people that are 'cause of covid.

They're not going back to downtowns for office buildings. So the 10 31 is a wonderful way to repurpose all of these, uh, all these distressed properties too. So. Massive important aspect, Saul. Thank you for bringing that up. 

[00:28:43] Saul Klein: It's a great tool. More people should use it, Dan. I 

[00:28:47] Chris Able: just want to point out that, to Saul's brilliance, he literally said, The best thing we can do is die, and all six of us just went, yeah, yeah.

That's the quote of the year on an early year. And you're absolutely 

[00:29:01] Andreas Senie: right. Death and taxes, but go through it to your advantage. It's all you can do, and you can do it in real estate, not in the stock market. It's always a good, uh, Inland is always buying and we are always brokering on the brokerage. The 

[00:29:13] Dan Wagner: 1031 is everything, everybody.

And 

[00:29:15] Andreas Senie: the 1031 is the 401k, I'll never forget it, for real estate operators. That just made perfect sense to me. That's the way it works. 

[00:29:23] Saul Klein: And it's not just the wealthy people, right? It's mom and pop. It's like, if you did an analysis and you just took a piece of property and you looked at buying it, holding it, selling it, deferring the capital gain from it, using the deferred gain to buy your next property, holding it, it goes up in value.

Exchanging it, using the deferred gain to the, if you did that over like, and just kind of as a drill for like a 20 or 30 year period, you would be astounded at the difference it makes not having to pay the government the money you owe them when you owe it, but being able to pay it later. 

[00:30:01] Dan Wagner: And it's the solution to so many areas.

In Chicago, there's a food desert where the Ida B. Wells housing complexes were that got torn down, and the only, there was no place to buy groceries. And a developer came in and was able to start this process that a huge company came in from New York and 1031 exchange into this begun development. And they put in a really nice, uh, Mariano's grocery store in Bronzeville in Chicago.

And that was all done because it wouldn't have happened if it wasn't for the 1031. I mean, that's just the reality. Or in, uh, in one of our suburbs out here in Chicago is Naperville. That's, uh, uh, That that area had a Kmart building that went dark for years. Weeds were going to the parking lot. The town hated it.

And this old guy had it and he is like, Hey, I got some nail salons there. I'm making some money. I don't wanna sell 'cause I'll get killed. Capital gains. Boy, the town we're able to learn about the 10 31. They said, why don't you 10 31 into this apartment building? And then he did. And then Costco. Bought it from them and they scraped it and all the jobs get created by the 1031.

So that's the other aspect. It's just so synergistic because if you, if you don't have the 1031, you are not going to have the velocity and liquidity in the market that's going to create, um, these opportunities for people to buy, do, you know, painters that get to hire the lawyers to do their shows. I mean, just, it goes on and on and on.

And so that's why we have to keep educating these elected officials. For so that they understand the importance of this and it is, it is a really a big deal and I'm so proud of our real estate industry for going into the White House when they knew the White House was against them. I think they made some progress to let President Biden folks know the importance of this.

And so it's, um, it's really, uh, it's such a big deal that we all are talking about it. And I just, uh, I can't tell you how much I appreciate this opportunity. 

[00:31:53] Saul Klein: Well, let me, I want to just add, just as an instructor, as a real estate teacher for many years, so people need to understand a little bit more about, we talk 1031 and we understand it.

And we sometimes take for granted that everybody understands what we're talking about. And so some key things always for me was first, like for like, like for like, well, like for like, doesn't necessarily mean what you think it means. And so you could trade a shopping center for a rental property for a rental house.

I mean, like for like is basically real estate for real estate, income producing real estate for income producing real estate. So when you think of a 1031 exchange, think about like for like real estate. And then there was another phrase we used to use up in value, up in loan, up in equity. And so, it doesn't have to be a totally tax deferred exchange, you can do partial exchanges, and they don't have to close simultaneously.

They can close over an extended period of time, so there's lots to know about it. There's lots of education that people should have, but they shouldn't shy away from it. And I think, again, we do a disservice sometimes to folks because we just assume they know all this stuff, and a lot of them 

[00:32:54] Andreas Senie: don't. We've got, we've got listeners all over the world and many don't and language changes and it's not just symbol of fee, right?

It's not just 1031. There's the DST products. There's so much out there, but these are all arsenals in our toolbox, educating, informing, advising clients, everyone here, regardless of what we do, understanding these, the nuances here and introducing that information at the right time. It's something AI just can't do.

It can't prompt it well enough to do it. And even if you did, you really want a person who the tonality that you get from a person like this to understand and walk you through and educate it. So you can move those properties through. And one last thing on the 10 31, let's not forget the farmers over there, uh, moving and selling their properties.

That would come to a halt. If I recall, Dan, on earlier show, you had a lot of figures there. Oh gosh. 

[00:33:41] Dan Wagner: I'm heading to the, I mean, Inland sent me to the, uh, the National Farm Bureau meet in Utah last year. I got to go to Puerto Rico this year. I'm going to a Salt Lake city. So, um, it is super important in farmers when they find out about the DST, the Delaware Statutory Trust, when you can 1031 exchange, uh, into a fractional share interest and become a passive investor, uh, from it turns their life around when they don't have to work their brains out for 3%.

you know, growing all this corn or soybeans or whatever. And they're able to go into a DST. It's like a whole new world for them. Now, most farmers don't want to sell, but there's a percentage that have to. And then, you know, obviously it's all highlighted when you, you pass away, then your heirs get it with a stuffed up basis.

And, you know, when they start looking at all that, at those aspects and. You know, when you have farmland and you could do a DST. Well, what can't you do with farmland? You can't depreciate farmland. Well, you can depreciate DST. You're able to take the depreciation and it's passed through to you. So there's a lot of different nuances to that.

And the DST world, as everybody knows, Inland, uh, was involved with creating that years ago. And it's just, it's been wonderful to see so many people being helped by that. But farmers. are a big deal and don't forget the conservation world. They all love the 1031 because conservationists know that the 1031 is vital for a farmer that are dirt rich and cash poor to sell their land, to be able to hold it for conservation for a conservation group, they would never sell if they didn't have the 1031.

So there's all these different aspects of the 1031 that people don't necessarily know about. 

[00:35:20] Andreas Senie: And it's far reaching. As you said earlier, jobs creates jobs. It allows for movement, redevelopment of parcels that would otherwise sit and become abandoned buildings, right? The opportunities are out there and 1031s exchange, 1031s have to happen.

10, 000 people turn 65 every day, regardless of the interest rates, people have to sell. Death, um, death as well as divorce and other factors come into it. Partnerships split up. Well, Becca, you know 

[00:35:49] Dan Wagner: this doing your commercial. I mean, you know, I'm not, I have my real estate license, but I don't, as you know, don't practice as a commercial real estate broker.

And I have my license, but you're out there in the trenches every day. I mean, I'm sure you see, you've seen lots of experiences with this.

[00:36:04] Anna Maria Kowalik: It's 

[00:36:04] Bekah Carlson: phenomenal to have you advocating for us, Dan. And I think about that frequently as we put together our own NICAR, where I am past president and current board member.

I've been on the board of the Northern Illinois Commercial Association of Realtors for eight years. And as we put together programming. pieces of that are educating and certainly focused on those advocacy issues. And we have some other big things happening here in Chicago. We have a transfer tax issue that's going to hit this spring.

That is a really, really big deal here. And I'm seeing organizations come together. I was literally emailing our executive director and our president today. All right. What do we need to do to start advocating? What do we need to do to start those conversations? How can we support Illinois Realtors? How can we support Chicago Association of Realtors to ensure that we're providing the, the Kind of legwork, right?

That our members are having the conversations to help people understand issues because sometimes these advocacy issues are really complicated and we do, like Saul mentioned, expect like a lay person to understand it, but they don't. And, and there's a lot of spin on it when there's a political agenda.

That I feel like we have to counter with education and it has to be very intentional. And I guess that's right. That's where marketing comes into play of like countering spin that we're receiving or misinformation as Darren talked about and ensuring that we are a consistent, clear advocate for change and, and, or for not having rampant change that would negatively impact the industry.

[00:37:47] Anna Maria Kowalik: And having talking points is very important for that, uh, preliminary advocacy, let's call it, uh, preliminary because it's not as in depth and followed through as Dan does on a regular basis, but, uh, that each one of us. get, uh, you know, as far as, uh, an educational kind of, uh, uh, format and, uh, for ourselves, as well as being able to communicate to others.

So, uh, thanks for all that hard work, Becca. 

[00:38:21] Andreas Senie: Becca, Dan, Saul, everyone, right? There's so much to be done at every level.

Moving things forward and educating others. Mentoring others. Well, 

[00:38:33] Dan Wagner: if you want to put some solar panels on your roof, go to Anna Maria, right? 

[00:38:38] Andreas Senie: That's cutting it short. It's not just solar panels. If you want to automate your entry and exits, you can flow all that under C Pace. Absolutely. It's real estate.

Use other people's money. C Pace. That's right. We get that money, uh, bring it in, 

[00:38:52] Anna Maria Kowalik: automated building controls and all kinds of other, uh, unique aspects of, uh, you know, new technologies. And, and that's what's so wonderful about this industry because it grows with the technology. 

[00:39:06] Saul Klein: And I want 

[00:39:07] Andreas Senie: you to take 10 years to do anything or really realize that the change 

[00:39:12] Dan Wagner: are charging stations.

Part of it to Anna Maria. Oh, 

[00:39:14] Anna Maria Kowalik: absolutely. Uh, here in Illinois. Absolutely. Um, some states are looking at charging stations and, uh, for electrical vehicles as Greater consumers of electricity and therefore not wanting to qualify them under sea pace. Uh, the way Illinois looks at it is that, uh, the, uh, electrical usage is a cleaner.

Uh, usage, a cleaner, uh, energy source and therefore is, uh, allowable under CPACE. So it is nuanced, uh, in various state legislations across the 

[00:39:59] Andreas Senie: country. Well, and, and, um, I believe it was Dan who mentioned the office buildings and the headwinds. There are batteries you can put in your empty office. parking garages and get paid from your utility company and you're going to install those with c case funds and then get paid on the grid charges, right?

You put it in charge the community adaptive reuse of all that prime downtown real estate that was once an office turn it into apartments put some retail underneath Turn it into a walking. Uh, we're still trying to 

[00:40:31] Anna Maria Kowalik: figure out how that really pencils out in the CPA's world, but, 

[00:40:35] Andreas Senie: uh, well, that leads out to you that that's a hard question, but we still have debt and equity fund financing to do all of that and so on, but with all the automation and everything going out there.

So I forget the guys out there doing the work. It's, yeah. Costs may be up, but mortgage rates, right? Things are, money is going back to a place that's palpitable. So now our owners and the owners who were unrealistic are being forced to sell. And there are already investors waiting to take that on and build and grow.

Cause just like 10, 000 people turn 65 every day, we have businesses growing and shrinking that have to move or else they fail. So we're there servicing them. Speaking of servicing business and industry, Darren, as far as cybersecurity and everything that's happening in the world, has. AI and I'm going to go left here, right with AI coming forward.

Has there been a surplus in labor into your field into the cyber security world? Can I find all the guys I need you to protect me or am I turning to an AI solution? 

[00:41:37] Darren Hayes: Uh, I, I think, well, right now what we're seeing is AI creating more problems for cybersecurity people than, than really solving problems. Um, more scams, more, more fake videos.

[00:41:50] Andreas Senie: So more, more talented people are needed, not more computers, is what I'm hearing from the most tech-forward part of the show. 

[00:41:57] Darren Hayes: Yeah, I, I, I think so. I, I think that, you know, at the end of the day, we have such sophisticated systems out there, and one of the problems is, first of all. So many alerts, so many false positives, and it really takes a human to be able to identify, you know, what's going wrong with the system, you know, doing incident response and working on on systems.

It really takes kind of a keen eye for somebody to notice an aberration and something that just doesn't look right. And very often, you know, things go, you know, the bad guys know how these tools work and and they work to, you know, get around these systems circumvent the cyber security systems. And so you really need a trained eye, I think.

Uh, to to be able to monitor what's going on. I mean, we have organizations that suffer a million, two million attacks a day, you know, agencies in this country. And, you know, systems can't cover all of that. It really takes highly skilled individuals. And unfortunately, We have, you know, well over a million open positions in cyber security that can't be filled.

And so that is the biggest problem that we continue to face in cyber security in 2024. 

[00:43:18] Andreas Senie: So more, more and more people are needed. Absolutely. Wow. It's, it's. So funny, I, you know, I have Facebook, LinkedIn and all these feeds that, that just pummel me with similar like content, a lot of building information, little dogs, and then the scary thing of the world, hey, the news and all the bad, but I go back to this, this event with you guys once a month, I go back to my other mentors and my circle, my network, and we talk about the industry, and it's amazing how much you can get out of just a simple luncheon, As opposed to the death scrolling or infinity scrolls that people are stuck on.

These echo chambers. That's what I'm seeing. I detest looking at these notifications. As you said, there's just so much to see. Not even cyber security, but just in general. I'm being bombarded. I'm, I am a big fan and I'm moving back to the phone as often as I can, if not in person. 

[00:44:11] Anna Maria Kowalik: Well, and everyone just has to stay alert.

Um, you know, I think the inland group does a really good job. Their security team, um, is, is wonderful in, uh, You know, helping educate on fishing and, uh, what to look for and, and how to navigate this crazy, uh, cyber world. Um, and, and lately I, I've been seeing on the news locally here in, uh, the Chicagoland area in Illinois.

Um, Uh, about some of the senior scams and how, uh, things are getting even more difficult with AI being so on point with, um, being able to duplicate, uh, family voices and, uh, and scaring seniors into, um, uh, sending money, uh, for, uh, uh, an ailing family member. And, uh, and so they give instructions, uh, while they're, uh, putting out that newsflash, uh, as to how you should handle, uh, to immediately hang up and call the number of the person that you know is their verified number and, and check in with them and make sure they're okay.

But, um, You know, it's, it really is scary. And, and, uh, the only way to stay ahead of it is information and, and being aware. 

[00:45:38] Andreas Senie: There was a, there was a gentleman who lost like 100, 000. He got some sort of automated call that directed him to a Bitcoin ATM and took his money out. He would deposit it at the Bitcoin ATM and somehow it was just gone.

So it's, it is a scary world out, but that's where these trusted advisors, these relationships, um, knowing where to go and what information to read, as opposed to just asking chat GPT is essential, having the right people to ask the right questions. Why we do this every month, at least that's what I do it every month.

I learned so much more on this call than I do across what 19, I have 19 podcasts, I have bullets, I have news feeds, I have Google alerts, and it's just getting in touch and being a contact support. Working with everyone. That being said, it's 6. 45, this hour is flying by. CPACE, as always, is there. It's adjusting.

Rates are there. Equity, debt, we're growing. Plenty of moves to be made. Cybersecurity is always an ever present issue for many, and many don't even realize, you know, there was some crazy number Darren had spoken to me about years ago that 70 percent of households have been hacked or penetrated or something has tried to hack a household.

Nobody knows, because most of the time it just keeps going. But it's there. You've just got to be vigilant. And as we continue to grow, the best way to find the best people has been these associations has been these groups. What is the tip for each year going around as we move to the top of the hour in part three for the industry marketing?

Otherwise, what's the big shift? And Becca, I wanted to ask you earlier, what is our people adjusting their marketing now in 2024 for these headwinds? Because I know that's a big topic. 

[00:47:22] Bekah Carlson: We've been doing a lot of strategy meetings of, of creating. that narrative that correlates with business goals for the year.

For the most part, our clients are really trying to do more, as I said, more in 2024. And my favorite part of what we've talked about tonight is the educational aspect. And I think learning more in 2024, if I can abridge my more in 2024, I think learning more. We're talking, we've talked about advocacy as a wonderful education opportunity.

Anna Maria's materials are the best educational materials I've ever seen for sure. Hands down. I love what Inland Green Capital does. Educating people about about CPACE. Darren, I learn so much from you every time that we talk and Saul's got this amazing new job where he's going to be educating 12, 000 people on a daily basis, which is mind boggling.

And Chris has an entire association that he's educating to. And certainly Dan, um, not just keeps us apprised as an advocate. He really does the entire market in the entire country. That's great. And Andreas brings us all together and is the most knowledgeable person I know about running a brokerage or have ever known in my entire career.

So here we are, this repository, this brain trust, and we get to educate more in 2024. And that's really the key takeaway that I have from tonight's 

[00:48:50] Andreas Senie: meeting. Love it. for that, for that. It's right. Come from a place of giving and see what deals will. We'll flush out eventually. It may not be a deal today. It may not be a deal tomorrow.

Eventually we'll do business. Let's all help each other grow as is the original. Four teachers over at Inland, I'll go ahead and say that, that's where that culture started. Teaching education materials. To ABC, pulling each other up into bids and working together. To Darren, Darren over at Cybersecurity. He said it flat out, the people need to work with each other and they need more people.

The tech can't do it alone. And as Saul knows, educating 12, 000 people is easy. He was on a roadshow for 700 MLSs before that. You've got a candid audience there. He's gonna re The engineer, the MLS, maybe not. I can't go that far. But Anna Maria, what, um, what's the big takeaway for you? And then let me jump over to Sol.

Well, I 

[00:49:46] Anna Maria Kowalik: always like to say the future is green and I think more green in 2024. Uh, just a quote. Uh, Rebecca, if I can, uh, you know, uh, Becca's always got a, a, a great, uh, caption and I think, um, uh, that really says it all because, uh, there are so many strides to be made in this industry. Um, uh. Just as I've always said, we pride ourselves in, uh, improving, uh, buildings and the environment at the same time, one project at a time.

And, and so to do more of those is, is continually our goal moving into the 

[00:50:30] Andreas Senie: future. Faster and in more places, although SeaPace is everywhere with some minor changes. Just 

[00:50:38] Anna Maria Kowalik: about, it's getting there.

[00:50:41] Andreas Senie: Um, and Darren. I'm skipping around here. Saul was next. Now I'm going to Darren. Darren, what's your, what's your one takeaway for the audience tuning in?

Where should they find the help? That's the question I'm asking. I call you, but we're not going to give everybody your cell phone, right? 

[00:50:57] Darren Hayes: Well, I would say, I would say the things are changing so rapidly, uh, that one of the, the great places to look is really social media. And, you know, even just. You get on to some, you follow some good people on, uh, you know, LinkedIn and also some people on, uh, Twitter, for example, and that helps me keep up with cyber security because.

You know, all the people in the know are there people talking about the latest leak out there and how it impacts certain, um, people, certain organizations, what the latest vulnerabilities are, uh, so social media is really the fastest way for me to to keep up with, What the latest trends are, but there's also places like S.

C. Magazine. And, uh, if you're part of an organization, you can subscribe to, you know, Verizon put out very good alerts on the latest cyber security. Issues and risks and and leaks as to Microsoft. And so, uh, that's that's really it's it's hard to keep up. And, you know, also just networking with people who work in industry and what the latest problems they see are, um, I would say that, you know, even companies are suffering from a lot of, uh, vulnerabilities that came out a year ago.

Um, and so, We often think what's the latest thing that's happening out, what, what's the latest malware, but, but companies are still, you know, being breached using very old technique techniques and, and, you know, they haven't updated their system. So yeah, it's hard to keep pace with everything. 

[00:52:41] Andreas Senie: You mean there are still investment groups out there rocking windows 95 from TVs.

You know who you are. You're doing it. That is very true. Um, and This is, I'm not going to hammer it right on the head. Real estate data, real time data, 30 days? So we've got a little breathing room where we're not reacting and being forced down certain pathways. Although real estate is not invincible or impervious to these threats.

We've had so many land grabs where people have transacted land. Second, third, vacation property, just land where nothing and new owners have shown up and started building. And all of a sudden the, the Exist prior owner or the rightful owner gets an alert or drives by realizes someone's building on their property.

They just had one for 1. 6 million here in Connecticut. So these bad actors, these, these fake applications, fake transactions, they're, they're real. So vigilance is, it's certainly key and don't leave it to your AI intern. I mean, AI technology, Chris on your side. 

[00:53:50] Chris Able: I always find myself piggybacking a lot of times on, um, Becca always puts everything in such a nice package.

That marketing package, as Anna Maria kind of pinpoints, I always find myself piggybacking off of, uh, But I tell you one thing that I, I, I've been working for years and years and years, just grinding and grinding and grinding, working so hard on so many different things that I would say, um, not only this year, but towards the fourth, uh, fourth quarter here of 2023, I realized that I'm in a space now, and I've been doing these different methods and different things to educate more and really focus on.

The younger generation, cause I'm in a spot now. Where I can mentor and it's actually needed. It's needed in all industries as, as Darren even was mentioning the lack of cybersecurity, um, people coming up in the industry, but I know in the construction industry, if I can go out and I could. Do ride alongs with some of our younger members.

If I can work with our emerging leaders groups, I can work with some of those people and keep them interested in this business and keep them understanding why it is so cool to be able to go buy buildings that you or your company were responsible for. Um, it's, it's, it's, it is a good way to pay it forward that I never really realized that that's what I should be, should be focusing on.

And that's kind of my, my, my takeaway is more of the. Getting out there and being in front of younger people and keep teaching younger people. And, um, the other thing I was just thinking about very quickly is the, so just let the cat out of the bag for our listeners. We have our own little chat group, um, LinkedIn and all of us end up dropping a random article in there.

I, a lot of times I don't even read the article. I take something that has to do with, I do read it afterwards, but I dropped it in first. And with the idea of, I'll go back to it, but I wonder if the group might be interested in, and then if we could, if we could package that up, I guess we are doing that once a month, but if we could package that up and almost put those articles out there to see what, you know, the, the seven of us are focusing on, um, on our daily basis or outside of this podcast, that might be a tool to, to educate more people as well.

That would be 

[00:56:19] Andreas Senie: a Carlson integrated marketing may have been a request. 

[00:56:23] Chris Able: Cause I have no idea how we do it, but, um, and we can't invite the whole world into that, into that, but that's just, that's how I was thinking. So 

[00:56:32] Andreas Senie: quality over quantity, knowing the source, having the right sources, working it together, growing together, echoing everyone so glad to be in this group and mentoring down and then looking up.

I have mentors. I mentor. I'm sure everyone here still has mentors or mentees, hopefully both. Um, Dan, you're there to my left and then Saul, we're saving you for the last. Oh, 

[00:56:56] Dan Wagner: thanks guys. I got to tell you just real quick. Two things. First, uh, the big thing, take away the 15%, 15 percent rise in the number of exchange of 1031 exchanges initiated with commercial real estate transactions.

The count fell by 22. 1%. Um, I think that's from 2019 to 2023. I think that's real interesting to get to show the power of the 1031. And then, uh, I guess I'm going to do a point of personal privilege. So I'm really proud that the Inland Real Estate Group is sponsors of the Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. Uh, breakfast that we're bringing back to DuPage County here.

And we have, uh, 1200 people that are signed up to come on January 15th. And just the importance, especially in this day and age with the crazy stuff happening on the world stage, the idea that we all need to be our equal and work together is a big deal. And I'm proud that Inland has brought that wonderful breakfast back to our county of a million people.

So that's a big project that we're working on. Which is a sideline thing, but we can't forget we have to be involved in our communities, and we have to bring everybody together. 

[00:58:03] Andreas Senie: Community involvement, mentorship, it all works to build relationships and grow that business. And as the guy out there on the road, once upon a time, now engaged with 12, 000 new users.

We just didn't have a less switch here in Connecticut, and everybody hated it, so. Not any, heavy as the head that wears that crown. What, what are your thoughts there? 

[00:58:23] Saul Klein: Well, it sounds like what you did was a vendor, a change in MLS vendors, and that's always that in the lockbox. Change is a terrible thing if you list and sell real 

[00:58:32] Andreas Senie: estate.

I that for me, I don't, I rarely use the MLSs . 

[00:58:35] Saul Klein: Yeah, so, so here's what I would say. There's so much to talk about. This is the beginning of 2024. We're looking at a. At a catastrophic, I think, situation in commercial real estate for a number of reasons that we don't have time to talk about right now, but that'll create opportunities.

And so what we talked about is learning, being educated. I think people need to become responsible citizens, responsible citizens, knowing about. 1031 knowing about taxes, knowing that governments are running deficits and they're going to do everything they can to get take more money from you. And the way they do it is by increasing taxes.

And there are opportunities in the tax code itself that will allow you as an individual to take advantage of it. And that gets back to what Becca is saying. It's about education. So be responsible, be responsible for yourself and for what you buy real estate. Buy a home. If you don't own one by a second one, if you have a first one and not for a second, second home to use, but for one that you could turn into a rental property, take a real estate principles class, not that you're going to list and sell real estate, but the more you know about it, the more informed you are as a consumer, the better consumer you're going to be, be responsible to yourself, be responsible as a voting citizen.

This is an election year. Lots of things are going to come down. People are going to vote for things that are against their best interest. And they won't even know it because they're not informed. And so learn all you can be informed. You know, you also mentioned the, uh, Chris, the small group where we really, what happens when you get a group like this is we all become curators for each other.

And so we curate content. We all read content in our particular area, but then we'll select the best of it and drop it in for the others in our group to read. So we're all curators and. We give the best that we can to the group. And if you can join a group like that and participate, you should. And maybe there is a way we can open this up to the world.

Think about it, 

[01:00:35] Andreas Senie: Andreas. There's, there's absolutely a way that's, those are networking. Uh, let's go battle LinkedIn on their platform for the next, the CRE of LinkedIn. But yes, I'm with you a hundred percent. Then there are others out there. The industry is growing as is the professionals in it more and more care about change community involvement.

There's a whole generation shift shifting and just as ignorance does not excuse you from following the law being blind to the programs where the money is being spent where the regulation is moving. Ignoring that, not being out there learning, not being an investigative journalist is just shooting yourself in the foot.

It's worse than being asleep at the wheel. It's being woefully ignorant to the opportunities in front of you and then getting in the way of the rest of us. So go out and kick over every rock and be there. That's, that's my one thing to the, to the industry is being in front of your clients, either through marketing, by the phone, whatever it takes.

Don't be asleep at the wheel. It's January. There's plenty to do commercially, residentially, all of it. And one thing I do want to unpack a bit further, everybody here talked about learning and educating and networking today. And almost every show we talk about it. Our partner CRE tech will be in London, talking all things green tech, commercial real estate tech, 1300, 130, 000 audience strong CRE tech provides everything green, built world prop tech advisory investment.

Just an incredible group. That group started, saw to your earlier point, that room was 20 vendors when I started attending that show. They now have over 1300 in attendance and some of the biggest names on Wall Street and institutionally. It is the go to event for climate change and to learn and grow and meet people that you could start your own groups with.

But keep joining in with us. Don't miss your opportunity there. Take advantage of our unique Comp codes and tune in again, every month, first Thursday of the month, subscribe to our YouTube channel, where there's a host of great content, sector interviews, over 70 of them, right over a hundred by the end of this year, please do share rate and review us.

It really does help. I want to thank the audience for caring for showing up every month. I want to thank my cohost for being there for being a phone call away. When I have a question for letting me stretch my business with the help of them every day. And that's, that's really the, The energy and the the tribe that's built here, I think with that, thank you again for tuning in this.

This show is powered by CCO ai. See you next month. Looking forward to a great start to 20. 24 more in 24. 2024 Tobe. Thank 

[01:03:18] Anna Maria Kowalik: you. Thank everyone. 

[01:03:21] Andreas Senie: Thanks for tuning into the Real Estate Roundtable, powered by kco ai, your source for the latest in real estate and technology for past episodes, sector interviews, and more great content.

Follow us on all social media and YouTube at. CRE Collaborative. You can also find us anywhere you listen to podcasts. Please like, subscribe, and share. It really does help. Thanks again for tuning in and we'll see you at the next Real Estate Roundtable.