[00:00:00] Andreas Senie: Welcome back to this month's real Estate Round Table, your all-in-one comprehensive view of what's happening across the real estate industry, straight from some of the industry's earliest technology adopters and foremost experts in technology, marketing, brokerage, government policy, capital construction.

As always, this is a three-part show. Part one, introductions to each of your round table hosts in their unique business sector. Part two, we dive deep. Unpack the biggest news and shifts happening in the industry affecting your business. Part three, what you can do to outpace your competition. I'm Andrea Senni Siri, collaborative founder, brokerage owner and commercial director at kw.

Joining me this month, none other than Saul Klein, original internet evangelist and part of the founding team for what is now realtor.com and futurist and all things tech. Saul, nice to see you as always. Likewise, Chris Abel, membership director at Associated Builders and Contractors, everything and anything you need.

Construction development, Rebecca Carlson, foremost Marketing, Maven founder and c e o Carlson Integrated. Anna Maria Kowalik Beck in I see as well. Anna Maria Kulik, director of Business Development, inland Green Capital Captain Annamaria Kowalik. Oh, can I say that with Saul on the line? Captain Annamaria Kowalik.

And then none of the, then Dan Wagner, senior VP government relations. Mr. In and out of the White House in the 10 31 Exchange for this month's round table.

Gentlemen, it's July. How is your 4th of July? It is exciting to be back if you don't know. And for the audience, we are on our 71st episode here at the round table. Yay. 2000 monthly downloads globally with over 80% of our audience here in the US And some of us are gonna have to learn a few more languages because we've got quite a bit of, uh, quite a strong audience now overseas.

Well, what's going on? I'm gonna go to my right. Captain Annamaria, how is the summer heating up for you? 

[00:03:01] Anna Maria Kowalik: Everything is not only green and the greenest, it is all year, but also red, white, and blue. So I'm still vacationing in the lakes of Minnesota, so that's where I'm coming from to you today. But, um, uh, just generally speaking, um, uh, things are picking up in some sectors.

Uh, we're seeing a lot of, uh, c pace activity and, um, self-storage, more intro interest. There have been some recent conferences and things that, uh, uh, actually, uh, help promote the product. Uh, and, and so we're, we're seeing a little uptick there. Um, uh, From, uh, other standpoints, uh, across the industry. Um, there's actually a lot of updated legislation going on in various states, uh, regarding c a e, so, uh, a continual evolution of the program and, uh, the effect that it's going to have on the rest of the nation.

So, uh, lots of good things happening. 

[00:04:12] Andreas Senie: And you're on vacation captain and on vacation with the captain's hat, so it must be doing 

[00:04:16] Anna Maria Kowalik: well overall. Most certainly have, 

[00:04:21] Andreas Senie: well, it's, it's, uh, going green with C pace. I'm, I'm hearing great things more often for more people. People get it. They're looking for that capital.

So I'm curious to learn more, especially as Dan weighs in on the, on the policy changes. And Saul, especially Becca, you're also to my right, I think we're in the same order I should know after 71 episodes, but you're the right of Anna Maria on my screen. How are things going on your side of the world in the marketing?

[00:04:48] Bekah Carlson: Uh, things are going really well in marketing. We're seeing a lot of interest in building some marketing strategies, ensuring that our clients' message regarding their own growth of their companies is really getting out there. We have some fantastic new clients who I, I love them all. I don't know if you know this, I love all my clients.

They're just like the best people ever besides you guys, of course. So it's been a very exciting and really fun summer for us. We have had some vacations within our company, which is nice to have everybody. Uh, having a little bit more of that balance of being able to take a break, take a step back, refresh, recharge, and jump back in with a whole, you know, a new, more relaxed perspective.

So, summer's a really fun time in marketing too. 

[00:05:35] Andreas Senie: Well, um, and you know, people are on their phones all the time these days. Marketing is an unending battle even when you're on vacation. Chris on the construction front. Marketing aside and financing aside. How are things? 

[00:05:50] Chris Abel: Things are good. Um, I normally don't do this.

I know it's gonna be back, it's been a couple months, but I gotta, I gotta share a proud uncle, uh, moment. This is this where a smile comes from on my face. My, uh, got shout out. Jack Abel, my nephew. I just got this video sent to me while we're sitting here. He just hit a, a walk off in the All Stars full count, bottom of the seventh, down five, four, and he just hit a walk off, two run home run.

I'm getting, uh, pictures of him getting interviewed and all that sort of stuff. So all get on the personal front, all get on the professional front. Um, busy, busy, you know, uh, getting ready for a huge a b ct, ABC Golf outing on Monday. Sold out both courses, so I'm excited about that. Um, lot of dot connecting going on.

Um, labor. Labor shortage is the skilled labor shortage is just a big. Big issue at this point. It's been a big issue. Obviously we know that. But what I'm seeing now is, um, you know, some of these contractors, especially our subcontractors getting out there and they're getting their hands dirty again, and they're just kind of trudging through the heat and trudging through things to try to, um, figure out where they're gonna find the next license electrician or licensed HVAC tech or someone in mo work.

Or today, I had a conversation with someone who's looking for more, somebody who deals with doors and windows, and he shared the fact that, yeah, there's no license with it, but try finding someone who knows how to, um, you know, basically a locksmith slash window specialist slash door specialist. There's no, not necessarily a school that, uh, 17, 18, 19, 20, 25 year olds are crawling over themselves to try to, uh, to learn those skills.

So that's kind of the. A lot of building going on, but, um, it's an all hands on deck thing and there's just not enough people to do it. But 

[00:07:35] Andreas Senie: just not enough skilled laborers or not enough mentors, 

[00:07:38] Chris Abel: not there. That's pretty much it. Oh, the mentors are, uh, are saying cyr and they're, they're getting the captain's hat and, uh, they're going on vacation, going 

[00:07:46] Andreas Senie: to join Anna Maria.

[00:07:48] Chris Abel: Good. At the end of the day, it's good to be out and about and, uh, networking with people. 

[00:07:54] Andreas Senie: So Dan, uh, what's the government doing? Where's the policy and regulation to help on all that? And then, so I'm going to you on the tech side and more, well, well, 

[00:08:03] Dan Wagner: of course, keeping with the, the vacation theme. You see, my fish, uh, is a northern, I went fishing in, uh, in International Falls of Minnesota.

I go every year, uh, with Mr. Goodwin. He's our chairman and c o of Inland Real Estate Group. And we have a group, uh, of buddies at fish, uh, or I don't know how many years. I, I've been fishing with him for 15 years, but, It's been, uh, it's been a blast, so everybody needs to get out and get your batteries recharged.

So batteries are, uh, are recharged and, um, we're, uh, itching to go. We have, uh, the exciting news about interest rates. What are interest rates doing to our commercial real estate world? Well, uh, you know, last year at this time, inland was looking at 10 year fixed, uh, rates at 2.80. And this year, right now they're over four, uh, for 10 year.

And we are, um, we are looking at the administration wanting to increase, uh, the interest rates and that shuts down different parts of the economy is you could imagine, um, it's, uh, it's harder for, um, deals to happen. We, um, when, when we securitize commercial real estate, our goal is to give a return on investment.

And, you know, the CDs, uh, being at, uh, four and a half percent, you know, that's a challenge. So you need to make sure to work extra hard. That's where we, we feel pretty confident in inland that all of the, um, many years that we've been working and, and putting in relationships, we're able to find off, uh, off deals that are able to, uh, really work for our investors.

Um, but, you know, and over the last, I dunno, about 18 months, we have, uh, we bought 2.8 billion worth of real estate all around the country. About 50% of those are apartments, and we do sell leasebacks of grocery stores. We have, we've got over 20,000, uh, self, self storage, um, units, um, anywhere from New York, Massachusetts, Louisiana, Pennsylvania, Michigan, Texas, Florida, Wisconsin, Missouri, New Jersey.

So all around, but. Um, but the thing that keeps, uh, that keeps us, uh, on our toes are these interest rates. And, um, that's, that's a big deal. Um, also, uh, with the, the regulatory world, um, we are very much keeping our, our, our fingers on the pulse of that. Um, when you look at commercial real estate investing, a lot of different deals are, uh, need to be done by accredited investors.

And, uh, some of the regulatory world wants to possibly take a look at changing that to make it a smaller group, which we think is the wrong way to go. Um, we wanna make sure to give people the opportunity to invest in America. So that's, that's a, you know, the regulatory stuff is always something that is below the radar screen that most people don't know about.

But the, but the commercial real estate world, that is probably the biggest issue, are the interest rates right now. So, um, but, but Saul is kinda like the guru, so I can't wait to hear what Saul says. 

[00:11:02] Saul Klein: Oh, yeah. Where I. Well, if, if, if my piece is, uh, residential real estate, I can add to that conversation. It is interest rates.

We have, uh, an issue with inventory and one of the reasons we have an issue with inventory is, number one, we're not building enough and we haven't been the largest component of real estate, uh, expense is the land. And so we see some changes in land use to maybe allow for greater density, but still with the interest rates and having risen as quickly as they have, you've got people who've been in are in low interest rate loan, so they've got no motivation to sell and go into a higher interest rate loan.

So the inventory's low. There's no incentive for people owning the, so there might, there's the buyers out there, but the inventory is really low. And so you're not seeing a collapse in the residential market values for the most part because there's a lack of supply. Um, so that's a big piece. Another, uh, interesting piece.

I think if you've been following the Intercontinental Exchange ICE in its attempt to purchase, uh, black Knight, which owns Paragon, which has about 250 MLS contracts. And this is a really big story. Um, ICE has been buying components to digitize the loan process, bring costs down, uh, for a long time now for 10, over 10 years.

Uh, last May they attempted, they put in, uh, they got an accepted offer to purchase a Black Knight ICE did. But the FTC stepped in and said, no, we don't want that to take place. And that's been pushed off. They were supposed to be a hearing here in July that's been pushed off, I think till September. And behind the ftc, I think, or the GSEs fed, uh, Freddie and Fannie, they're not really interested in having more private capital come into the housing finance system.

And so keep your eyes on the Black Knight, uh, purchased by Intercontinental Exchange. That's the company that owns the New York Stock Exchange. Uh, because if that took place, that might help us on the loan expense side. And on the interest side, on the data side of real Estate's, kind of interesting, a large broker in Ohio decided to opt out of something called IDX Internet, uh, data exchange.

And, uh, that broker is Howard Hannah. That's a big move, uh, to be able to opt out. Now, there are n a r rules about opt out, having to be a blanket opt out. You can't just opt out one brokerage firm and not opt out the other brokerage firm because then you're inviting antitrust, uh, observation. And so they opted out completely.

That's a big deal on the, uh, on the data front, uh, about two weeks ago, I attended a Black Knight Conference in Kansas City. And I got to look at all the new products and uh, that was kind of fun. Saw an AI product that has been around for a while, but I thought it was interesting. It's populating data fields with photographs and so they go in and take a picture and then the picture will populate.

It knows what the bathtub, it knows the sink. It know. So just real interesting use of, of, uh, artificial intelligence. And then of course it can write marketing pieces from that. So lot's going on summertime. 

[00:14:16] Andreas Senie: In the summertime, right? It's all sneaking by in the middle of the summer while everyone's at the beach.

The spot. Let's 

[00:14:23] Dan Wagner: all real quick. So if somebody has a 3% fixed mortgage, uh, you know, they're not gonna be jumping in into wanting to sell and get into a 6% pretty, so they're holding onto it even if they're, they've outgrown the size of their home, right? 

[00:14:38] Saul Klein: Yeah. I mean, and so you, and you see that and you think about how many people we got, 3% or even less.

Yeah. You even love that. That's great. That's a great place to be, Dan. Right? Or less. And now people are saying you should sell your house. Well now if I gotta sell my house, I can buy something bigger, but I gotta go to five or six. I think I'll wait because when I look at the news, I can't tell if interest rates are gonna go up or down.

Maybe they'll go down. Some people say it might go down at some point early next year. So there's this resistance. Right. And I think that affects the market. Gotcha. 

[00:15:10] Andreas Senie: So you're so, so your belief is, is people are sitting on the sideline sidelines waiting for interest rates to drop. 

[00:15:17] Saul Klein: I think there's no great incentive

[00:15:20] Andreas Senie: to jump now.

Even though you've been in the, in the game and you've been in the business long enough to see interest rates 2007, much higher. You know, 93 money was free for the last 10 years. 3% is a gift. Yeah. 

[00:15:34] Saul Klein: So people are sitting on that 3%. There's really not a lot of incentive to move into something higher to double your payment.

Right. Uh, right. I mean, it's just because there's so much uncertainty. So I think that that and lack of, lack of building then creates this shortage. And, uh, that's where we are. 

[00:15:57] Dan Wagner: Well, Chris, you can build it, right? 

[00:15:59] Chris Abel: Yeah, yeah. We just gotta find some people to do it. That's all. Do it. But the, uh, gotta find the people though, what you're saying as far as, you know, I know on the, on the, even on, on the residential side, that's, that's been something even in my, my personal life where it's kind of kept, you know, kept us from, from making any sort of move.

And I had an interesting conversation with somebody last night, kind of in the same boat that, uh, that, uh, my family is in, where. You're really starting to, there is no real incentive to go buy, buy bigger and pay, pay a higher interest rate. So instead I've, I found that we're starting to look at other, okay, why, why were we gonna move?

Okay, we're gonna move for better education, we're gonna move for this, we're gonna move for better schools, obviously these different things. So you're trying to figure out other, re other ways to solve those type of problems rather than, you know, uprooting family and uprooting businesses and uprooting and moving into a different area, which is, it's interesting to kind of look at things in that perspective of like, all right, well, don't like what's going on in this area?

Don't like the school system. How do we figure out how to, you know, do we move or pay, pay a higher interest rate somewhere, or do we look into, you know, private schooling or the, it's very interesting to, to kind of navigate things right now. Um, 

[00:17:17] Anna Maria Kowalik: Well, and on the commercial side, for example, to your point of, you know, having a hard time finding people to do the work.

Yeah. Um, I, I'm having a local problem, uh, with, uh, trying to find solar vendors, solar contractors who are willing and able, and able to get. Uh, the supplies required and, uh, you know, and so jobs aren't getting done as quickly as they could be. And, and so if there are any solar vendors out there, feel free to contact me because, um, we're, we're looking for reliable installers, uh, people who have knowledge of projects, uh, uh, because the CPAs financing is there and there's no better time for CPACs financing than, uh, through these higher interest rates because we can, uh, offer more and better for, uh, a little bit lower rate.

Sure. And, uh, you know, the, the Fed last, uh, month pausing, uh, doesn't really mean anything because they already. Sort of threatened that they're gonna be, uh, you know, raising rates again, at least two more times, uh, the remainder of this year. So, um, we've still got a lot of, uh, waters to navigate here. That might be a little bit, uh, tipping, tipsy, whatever.

[00:18:47] Saul Klein: Well, uh, any, just don't 

[00:18:49] Dan Wagner: retrofit buildings with c Ace. Right? You also can do new 

[00:18:52] Saul Klein: construction. Oh, absolutely. 

[00:18:53] Anna Maria Kowalik: Uh, so existing buildings, I mean, that's what it was originally intended for, uh, the history of c a shows that, you know, it's a fixed improvement to a fixed asset and, uh, it, it's seeking to improve that aging building stock and making it more energy efficient and, um, you know, and, and possibly even, uh, bringing it to the renewable energy side, uh, water conservation, all kinds of different uses for c a, uh, but, um, Uh, over time it's evolved into a great partner to fill that gap in the capital stack on new construction.

And, and, and this is where, uh, some of the states are, uh, changing their legislation to be able to include new construction, uh, because they had specifically cited retrofit in their original um, legislation. Whereas here in Illinois, our home state. Um, you know, we didn't make that kind of qualification and so, uh, we didn't have to amend to allow, uh, some of the, the greater facility and flexibility of this product.

So, uh, it's, it's still a good, uh, option and especially for solar projects, if we could just get more solar vendors doing the work 

[00:20:17] Andreas Senie: well, but even, even if the cost of capital is less, as Chris has pointed out, and you just pointed out, you know, the time it takes to do the install, the retrofit, is that as, I mean, that's a problem.

Time kills deals and, and kills profits above all things. And what I'm hearing from two out of five is, is that the time time it takes to build, modify, or reposition is, is now a larger variable then the financing costs itself. That's correct. At the end of the day, if, if I'm investing money and I can beat the, the T belt right, then great.

Cash on cash return. Let me invest in commercial real estate. But if I have to reposition an asset and I can't reposition it cause I don't have the labor to do so that's a bigger problem. 

[00:21:02] Anna Maria Kowalik: It's slowing things down, that's for sure. 

[00:21:06] Andreas Senie: Well, technology will speed it up, hopefully cause we'll offload, offload it through is X and 

[00:21:10] Saul Klein: so on.

And so to 

[00:21:12] Anna Maria Kowalik: that point, I wanted to bring up that, uh, finally got on board and not myself personally, I'm gonna give credit where credit is due, but to, uh, our marketing team, uh, took some time to actually use chat G p t to see, uh, what it would come up with in a, um, uh, An article, uh, created by us or some kind of, uh, new, uh, marketing for an email blast.

And, uh, it was actually pretty fun and it was fairly accurate, uh, although I had to go through and make some corrections, uh, some modifications, uh, some things that, uh, perhaps, you know, we cannot say. Um, uh, Specifically illegally. And, and so we, uh, you don't wanna make sure that we make those tweaks and whatnot.

And, and it actually worked out really well because it ended up saving a lot of time, uh, what may have taken, uh, maybe two to five hours to create, uh, you know, just took probably about 20 minutes to correct and modify and, and you know, get into a decent shape to put out there. So, uh, my first experience with it, although not.

Specifically personal has been excellent. 

[00:22:45] Saul Klein: I think you're gonna find it gets better and better because you'll just get better at knowing how to frame your questions. Mm-hmm. And you're right. What it does is just saves time. It's my favorite go-to search now. Mm-hmm. Because instead of going to Google and searching and then figuring out which are the ads and which are not the ads, and then clicking and reading, I get a summary and I know what's right and what's not correct.

And that, but you're right, it takes some time. Yeah. But boy went through, let's say a thousand books or articles for me in a short period of time and brought it back and then let me do my thing with what's there. I, I love it. Well, I 

[00:23:22] Andreas Senie: mean, that brings up a great point with ai. The, uh, you know, Chris, you mentioned schooling, right?

Mm-hmm. So moving into a neighborhood with a great school. Well, if my child has an AI assistant that's there to teach them one-on-one and to educate them, Is being in that neighborhood with the best school as important when they're gonna have that AI assistant anywhere. 

[00:23:45] Chris Abel: I don't know guess part. Yeah, no, it's a good point.

I guess it depends what's going on in the school. Cause a lot of it, a lot of, it's not necessarily education based either. A lot of it is what's actually just going on in the, in the schools. But yeah, no, I totally understand that. I, 

[00:24:01] Dan Wagner: I love it. I, I'm a, I'm just such an old school guy. I don't, this AI stuff, there's so much socialization and so much aspect of learning that comes from being with the, you know, your peers.

And so yeah, I'm, I'm a big, uh, believer in, uh, the old school stuff. And, um, but Saul, you bring up a good point. You have something that goes through a lot of data points for you. That is a good thing. But I wouldn't, uh, I wouldn't go there. In regards to the, the kid education piece, it's. Is it? 

[00:24:29] Saul Klein: Well, I 

[00:24:29] Anna Maria Kowalik: don't know that it would be as, um, effective enough, uh, or it, it, you know, there would be maybe too much, uh, information that's kind of like on the border of being misinformation or whatever.

Uh, as a mother of four, grandmother of 10, I can tell you right now, believe me, uh, uh, what Dan is saying about socialization, about, you know, and, and Becca I'm sure will concur that uh, there's nothing like going to a good school in a good school system. Absolutely. And so real estate is always going to provide that function.

[00:25:10] Andreas Senie: So back to location, location, location, and. And to be clear, chat. J b t is is Wikipedia, not Britannica. It hallucinates it can lead you down a bad path. It is trained to sound intelligent. We've all had someone in our lives who, who uses bigger words, you know, like more, better just cause they think it sounds right.

Well, chat, j p t is trained to sound intelligent and eloquent. Doesn't mean it's right, 

[00:25:38] Saul Klein: but give, give it a little time. Now we're talking about something we weren't talking about a year ago, and so you give it a year or two or three. I heard the other day that a major college now is gonna have a whole course taught.

By AI taught by Wow. And then, right. So that's kind of a, that's a move. It's gonna, again, it takes time to socialize stuff. Like I was looking at the first video that was ever done on realtor.com. I did it. I was using black and white acetate overheads. I was telling people what you needed to be able to utilize this system built by, that was gonna be on the internet.

And then the proprietary network built by the National Association of Realtors, rin. It was called Realtors Information Network, which Anita was a 4 86 computer, eight megabytes of ram, and about 500 megabytes of hard drive memory. That was it. That was state of the art cutting edge. Wow. Less than 30 years ago.

So one of the things about AI is it also teaches itself. And so we're gonna find new Imagine Danny. Talk about the data points. Imagine a doctor. Who looks at you and they've got data points and they analyze what's wrong with you, and then they tell you what if they could put your symptoms into something that could analyze a lot more than they ever could to help them make their diagnosis.

So there's all kinds of things we really haven't gotten to with this at this point in time. And it's just kind of fun to watch. At this point. We're all just kind of playing with it, but I think there's gonna be great use for it as we kind of move into the future. And I was talking to another friend who's a real estate instructor and I've known him since elementary school.

Long time. It's a few years ago. So, yeah, he, so he called me today because he's been teaching real estate classes and he says, and he's younger than me, he says, you know, is it when you're 73 years old, is that too old to be teaching real estate classes? And my response to him was, it depends on whether or not you like teaching real estate classes.

Because if you like it, then there's no age having anything to do with it. But if you don't like it, then you shouldn't be teaching real estate classes. And his response was, he doesn't like the students. And not that he doesn't like them personally, he and I kind of found this true too. I participate in a group on Facebook for people that wanna study to take the real estate exam.

I can't believe how many people say I, I flunk the exam the third time I flunked the exam. The fourth time when I was teaching real estate principles, we people would pass the exam on the first try. I mean, that's, so what's happening to the students that want to now take it online? They don't want to take the live classes.

The live classes are shrinking. And, um, are they able to absorb as much with some of these new, you know, methods of learning? I'm not sure, but I'm not sure that the. The student is as well equipped to do some of the things that we used to be equipped to do. And I don't know what the cause of that is, but I think it's an interesting observation from somebody who used to love to teach real estate classes.

And I get a call today, KA, you wanted some, I think some support and saying, you know, didn't want to teach anymore. And the reason was that the students didn't seem to be able to learn the material as well as quickly. I'm not sure. Well, thank, thank 

[00:28:56] Dan Wagner: God those students fail because, um, we want the best people that are out there to be working with clients and not making the real estate industry look bad.

So it's good that they don't, that, that they're not getting into the industry. And that's a barrier for 'em because that's exactly what, you know, we hope happens is that we get only the, the best of the brightest that are in our industry. I, I know that, um, that. When I, you know, I, I don't sell residential real estate, but I know a heck of a lot of friends and, and colleagues that do.

And the people that I know, they are such a cut above any AI or anything else because they provide that one-on-one, you know, working directly with someone, um, you know, anybody can go and, and just Google something or whatever, but you have to have that person to be there working with you. And I, I don't think we're ever gonna get rid of that, that, um, high touch person.

I think we're gonna be, um, if you're, if you're, uh, you, you get what you pay for and I think you're gonna make sure to always have a good realtor. Um, back, you know, backstopping, the, the people that are serious about real estate. 

[00:30:01] Saul Klein: You know, I used to, I used realtors, used to be my clients and customers, so I always believe that, but I'm not sure I really believe that anymore.

One of the reasons is, and we all know this, that there are many, many people who sell real estate who are not competent. There are many, many people who sell real estate that do two or three deals a year. And while we have a number of people who are Dan, very competent, very good. We have a lot of them that are not, and I used to get involved in these conversations around dual agency is, should we have dual agency?

Should one party be able to represent another? Well, you know, prior to 1992, everybody represented the seller because that was the structure of mls. And after 1992, it changed. But I would always say to people, I would rather have a dual agent, a competent dual agent than two incompetent single agents representing it.

So it's like we have a lot of people that sell real estate, and that's an old argument, right? And so the, the first barrier is the exam, but then there's learning how to sell, learning how to deal with people. And there's a, it's a, it's a complex business that most people don't give it the, the, um, Given it's due, it's not as easy as a lot of people think.

And, 

[00:31:11] Dan Wagner: and the other thing, Saul, which is interesting to bring up, is the, um, the whole world after nine 11 started realizing you have people that are, um, that, that are, are not true in representing who the, who they are as buyers, that they represent cartels and their, uh, their underworld figures. And, um, and now, you know, you really have to, um, have people that can do their due diligence to know who are, you know, they're not just selling to sell to somebody.

They gotta make sure it's the right person. And you gotta be careful of money laundering and everything else. I mean, that's, that's a whole nother bailiwick. And, you know, I have my series seven and 63 license, and I'm going through my CE now and money laundering is a really big issue that, uh, that comes up, uh, during your 

[00:31:59] Saul Klein: CE time.

You know, I had that se I had a series seven, series 24, series 63 for a number of years. It was interesting. That. And then they might not still be doing this, but if you get out of production, you can't have those licenses anymore. So I actually had to let that seven go and 2024, because I got out of production.

Why did I get outta production? I got into technology. Yeah. And I stopped selling securities and I couldn't keep my securities licenses anymore. And which is real estate. It's different. You keep your real estate license forever, whether or not you sell anybody. Well, my, I tell 

[00:32:31] Dan Wagner: everybody, you know, there's a god when Dan Wagner passes series seven on the first try, that, that was the hardest test I've ever taken in my life.

Just, 

[00:32:38] Chris Abel: what do you guys, what do you guys feel like, you know, these people who are, and I've never sat in on any of these classes. I'm not, you know, licensed. I don't do real estate. Um, but what do you feel kind of, you can, like is it, is it material, is it the fact that people, some of these people think that it's gonna be much easier than it is?

Are they trying to get in because they, they hear how much money you can make? Is it that they. Aren't caught in the mustard in some other thing. Is it, I see Saul kind of nodding. I'm, I'm assuming it's a combination of all those Right. All. And you're right. I mean, I've been to so many different networking things where, you know, someone hands me a business card for, for something and then all of a sudden they're like, oh, well I also do this.

And I don't only do it a little bit and the first vibe I get is like, kind of, I'm wondering like, how, how much of this, how much selling do you really do? And usually that's on the, on the, the residential side. But, um, I was, I was just with a gentleman a couple hours ago who young Elec young electrical contractor owns his own company, young guy.

And he said, you know, I always kind of look back and I say, you know, I hate when people talk about how the younger generation, younger generation, cuz he truly is a younger generation, we're talking, you know, 26, 27 years old and he has his own company come from a different cloth. I tell him that all the time and I'm like, you gotta understand, you really are.

He goes, I know, I know, I know, but I can't stand when people say, you know, then this generation, this generation. And he said, uh, you know, I'm blowing through apprentices left and right. They, they come in, they, they wanna do this, they wanna do that. And then all of a sudden I have this hour and a half long conversation with somebody and on the skilled trades on the younger side, um, it's not so much the testing thing.

He seems to think it's a combination of either money, you know, someone else is gonna offer a few extra dollars interest or, um, the simple fact that they, they see everyone else working from home. Yeah, they see what everyone else is kind of up to. So all of a sudden they're willing to almost abandon a trade that they've gone to school for for three or four years, you know, four years through high school, and they're willing to walk away from it.

Um, it's, it's, it's mind boggling to me that's someone would sit, let's say a technical high school, go through a trade, finally get their opportunity, a legit opportunity, and then just go Mia and just start ghosting their potential employer. Um, you kind of wonder what is going on in those schools and in those, those guidance departments and within the educational system in regards to what are they being taught about?

You know, I don't even wanna say work ethic, I'm just talking about more manner, not, I guess manners are just Well, you're talking about life 

[00:35:23] Andreas Senie: plan. 

[00:35:24] Chris Abel: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Airplane. You, you're starting off. You're, and I, I can't, I can't. Say that I didn't, you know, start some of my early career stuff off, which wasn't career job stuff, where I didn't do things the way I should have, you know?

Um, but if your whole plan is to be an electrician, be an HVAC tech, be a carbon, be one of those things, you would think that, I don't know. I mean, I'm in my mid forties when you had that opportunity to do the thing, you wanted to do it, that was it. That's what you, you know, at least that's what you went towards.

That's what you, you, you strived for. And I, I just don't see that. And you 

[00:36:04] Andreas Senie: followed through. I think the follow through part is the key part of that conversation. Whether you're gonna become a realtor, commercial, residential broker, lawyer, um, yeah. Securities, it's follow through. 

[00:36:16] Chris Abel: And the market back on. Like, I know you wanna chime in, like even on the marketing side, like I do a lot of marketing people.

I'm curious to see like what you see with all of this stuff, quite frankly. 

[00:36:26] Bekah Carlson: Well, I have a couple of things I do wanna speak to. One of which is, I don't know if anyone else has seen, but, um, Martin Orcutt has commented on Facebook a couple of times and he's 78 and he teaches real estate and he actually is, is my mentor and really the, the greatest, one of the greatest encouragement in my life.

He calls me daughter number five. I'm number five. The neatest thing about Saul, you teaching your friend teaching Marty teaching is that you're willing to impart fundamentals that have been consistent and concrete for literally decades. And those decades of experience are something that our generation, and I'm, I'm Gen X, like Chris, and then millennials, gen Z, they desperately need that context.

To the businesses that they're running in real estate, in particular in the trades. And we all now get to start taking on that mantle of training the next generation. So as baby boomers are starting to exit the workforce, I think that there's this gap. And I, in some ways blame my own generation. Like we have a generational gap that we're still expecting the mentorship and expecting the leadership and guidance to come from people who are rightfully retired.

So we need to, we need to step up. We need to see what we can do to teach and learn from our mentors, carry on that mentoring to the next generation and how learning is done now is so dramatically different. Than it was. My daughter in first grade was tested herself in her classes and she's, she's now a seventh grader.

But she was testing in her classes to see if she was in an audio, audio learner or a visual learner. There were all sorts of things, and she, they would test every semester or every quarter, and then they change the learning pattern and how the kids could learn even at that really young age. So this new generation, these, these young ones now are going to come into the workforce, I think with a lot better self-awareness of how they learn best.

And we as educators and mentors and as older generations are gonna get to reposition our content into a way that they learn best. That being said, she's still a seventh grader. My, my, uh, college student daughter didn't have that kind of self-awareness taught to her and how she, how she learns when she was in school.

So there's, she's not as aware, and so she's gotta learn herself. How she learns best and then apply that and then decide what she wants to do from a trade standpoint. And she's in the, she's in, uh, the medical trades, so also a trade program, went through high school and is working in the real job. And the real job is hard.

And she wanted to quit. And she tried to quit and they told her, no, you're sticking. You're staying here and you're gonna keep doing this. You're actually really good at what you do. So a little bit of, uh, encouragement and mentorship from the older generation though was what really carried her through.

And so we all have a, that onus is on us, uh, as, as the people around them that surround this younger generation. Now, Chris, I find that new grads, and we've had, we've had great interns and we've had fantastic new grads come and work for us. There is a very big learning curve. There is a, there is an academic knowledge that hasn't necessarily translated into practical skills.

That can be, even if they've had lots and lots of training in four years of college and taking, taking tons of marketing courses, the practical application of that is why they really need people, right? They really need people who are, who are willing to spend the time. That being said, many of us as employers, we need to hire people who are skilled at their work, not and don't need that handholding.

So how do we balance mentorship, handholding and like, you've got a job, I'm paying you and you have to get it done because we have business that we have to accomplish. So there's, these are always just a little bit competing. Kind of priorities there. I don't know. I talked a lot. Sorry. 

[00:40:48] Dan Wagner: I'll throw, I'll throw in another idea is that one of the things I'm, uh, I'm proud of is being the past president of the Chicago Association of Realtors.

One of the things that their Chicago Association did is that they kinda led the way on the Y pns, that's the young professional networks. And that is now a really big deal at the National Association of Realtors is the YPN all across the country and probably one of the, and, and it's just the, it's an age old thing of networking and, and coming together with people who have shared common interests.

You're young, new in the industry, you'll be a part of the ypn. You have, um, the, the, the, the realtor associations are probably for our real estate industry, probably one of the best places for people to, uh, be engaged. And I think that, um, that if people can be more, uh, more involved in their, in their realtor organization and if they have specialties, obviously you have C C I M.

For commercial, you have, uh, one, a really fun thing that I've been a part of the last few years is the Realtors Land Institute, um, with Aubrey Berne. Um, we should get her on some time. It, it is so cool to, to be able to work with her and, um, and meet and learn more about, uh, what, what the Realtor Land Institute, what they do as well.

But those kind of groups, um, networking, growing. The folks that aren't involved in those things, I think really take a backseat and they don't last in this industry. And, and it seems like, in my experience, the ones that get involved and go the extra mile, they're the ones that are excelling and they're the ones that are making the money, um, to, to whatever, to that point.

[00:42:22] Saul Klein: Hey, Dan, what year were you president in Chicago? Uh, 2016. I was president in San Diego in 1993. Oh my gosh. Now and back. And back then when we were introducing technology, same thing as today. We'd call 'em RPNs, but we had studies done, the National Association of Realtors did study, and we had what they called young lions.

Okay. Established professionals. And laggards, and this was actually the three categories. It's kinda the same thing. Young professional, we call 'em young lions back then, and I agree with you a hundred percent that people don't get it. A lot of people, they just don't realize the value of organized real estate.

They don't understand the value of belonging to n r or your state association or your local association that if you participate, if you join committees, that you meet people, you get experience, you'd never get, you get opportunities to lead people, you get the that feeling, you get to feel what it's like.

And so you become more committed to a career and, and so you don't beg off as easily. But I get frustrated when I see some of the conversations that take place in social media. People don't have a clue about the value and all they can do is. Complain about n a r never does anything for me. Well, if you real hard, you'd find out that that private property rights are critical to real estate.

They're critical to your customers. And n a r does better than anybody in protecting these things. And people got a lot of nerve when they don't know, uh, not always right, but never in doubt. And you got these people right, and they just don't understand. And if they participated, it would help them in their career.

They have no idea. Well, so often, so the real 

[00:44:04] Dan Wagner: realtors help like, you know, Chris's business with, uh, building and everything. You have the, oftentimes the realtors are working in concert with the, um, all the building trade associations, and then we all come together and it's, uh, it's, you know, this really family of folks that are defending these private property rights because there's always a politician that sees our industry as the piggy bank.

And when you have, like Chicago, when you have, um, you know, just in Crane Chicago business, there was a downtown, um, office building that sold for 42% less than what it was, uh, purchased four or six years ago. I mean, that kinda stuff just is because of the taxes and the, you know, the crazy crime stuff. So the politicians have to wake up because that's what we really need to do to understand, um, how we can make.

You have real estate a better place in it. It's really all encompassing and it's so holistic. It could take, it take too long for what time we have left to get into it, but the holistic part of this stuff is a big deal. So we, well, and, and 

[00:45:07] Anna Maria Kowalik: to uh, Becca's point, she was starting to talk about some of the mentorship and all.

I just wanna acknowledge all of the comments that are coming in on, uh, from Facebook and YouTube and, uh, people who are presently watching and making comments and, uh, that. Uh, looked like they could, you know, use some additional assistance. I'm sorry, but we can't respond directly to you or Reagan. I don't know how to respond to them.

But Robin, uh, your question regarding C C I M, um, I was just together with a C C I M, uh, group this past week and, uh, here in the Chicago land area. And I thought it was a NA National Initiative. Um, they're getting into some new mentorships and, uh, there are some really great people. And so if you contact and connect with me after this, I'd be glad to introduce you to some people, uh, who would be more than happy and willing to be mentors and, and that are, uh, exceptional, uh, exceptional people with great experience.

So, 

[00:46:20] Andreas Senie: cause mentors are out there. The point is the mentors are out there. They're editing art. They're at C C I M, they're at S I O R. They're in these associations everyone's alluding to. And to the earlier points brought up by the group, barrier to entry, getting your license didn't teach any of us how to do, how to work in real estate.

It was just a barrier to get started and we had to be taught and trained. Uh, most of us were lucky enough to have mentors for those that are think they don't need a mentor. Look around this, this economy, this, the headwinds in the economy. All the riffraff are gonna drop out. I was licensed in 2007. It's fantastic because all of the glorified locksmiths that, uh, the group alluded to that don't really work in the business at an unparalleled level, they all fall away because it's really actually quite hard to do this business to be a broker.

So finding those mentors and thank you Annamaria. Robin, thank you for those comments. Emmy kids have a lack of commitment. Thank you. And others. Sorry to jump in there as we get to the top of the hour, but Chris, outside of the trades mm-hmm. Outside of policy, what else can we do? I mean, we've each got, um, looking at this group, 10 groups of 10 we employ or more under each of us, or are in a division of more than 10.

We all take on mentorship roles. Saul included. Saul's been teaching MLSs 600 different, different MLSs across the course of his career, walking around. Um, how do we get the next generation to pay attention and actually engage with mentor something, 

[00:48:01] Chris Abel: something that, um, as far as something I, I saw, I'm not sure if I saw it in the chat or if it was, if it was brought up, was um, You know, really digging in and having these younger kids take these assessments and try to figure out what their passions are and what they really kind of want to dig into and what they want and don't, and quite frankly, don't let them, I talked to enough guidance counselors and career counselors from my previous life, listen, don't let a kid come in and say, I want to be an influencer or a gamer, and let 'em just walk out with, oh, here it is.

I wanna be, and I'm not saying that they can't be to a certain extent, but one thing that I pushed, I, I had the opportunity, uh, a couple weeks ago to sit down for a coffee meeting and the gentleman I sat down with, powerful player in the Hartford area in regards to, you know, commercial real estate development, brought an intern with him.

And I loved it because I was able to just, Communicate with the intern and he, I could tell the intern was trying to chime in and I could tell there were certain things where he was trying to talk his way, you know, out of a wet paper bag type of situation. He was just agreeing with everything we said, ensuring us to death.

Years ago, that would bother me because I would look at that, that that young person as okay thinks it's a he's, he's a know-it-all or she's a know-it-all. Now I look at it as passion. Yeah. May not know everything, but at least there, this is a person who's willing to have the communication. So one thing I told, I told that, that intern, and one thing I tell all the young people I bump into is, and this goes for, we have an emerging leaders group at abc, that Young Professionals Network and all that sort of stuff is, I will find value in every ounce of communication that's been put in front of me when I'm at a networking event.

I was just out one before I came here. I walked in, the person I knew. Basically pass somebody off to me. I could tell they passed 'em off to me, but I'm like, you know what? We're gonna find some value in this. And if you dig and dig and dig, you're gonna find some sort of value in some sort of communication where if you run into that person again, or next thing you know, you find out that they're in an as another association that you're not involved with and they're having a networking event, and you could say, Hey, let me kind of roll with you and see what that's about.

I really think that, uh uh, and I hate to say a younger generation necessarily, but I'm just gonna put it out there. Finding that value in communicating and finding that value in why talking to someone face to face is so important and why this is so important. Look, I wrote, I probably can't read it. I put try chat G P T.

That's all I wrote cause I haven't tried it yet. Why did I put that out there? Cause Saul. I brought up a great point about how he uses it and how it's going to evolve, and I'm like, you know what? I, if he's saying it, and then I'm more on Dan's side where I'm a little more old school, but I'm like, I need to, that's the value I pulled out of I out of this last, you know, 50 minutes.

And that's not, I'm not here as a student, but I'm always going to be a student. And I think these students need to under, I mean, kids need to understand that they're always going to be learning. There's only so much that can be done in college. There's only so much that can be done, middle school and high school and trade school.

And, um, you gotta be able to communicate with people and pull the value out of the people that you're communicating with. And, um, you know, I, I don't really know how eloquent you can put that, but. 

[00:51:39] Dan Wagner: And 

[00:51:40] Saul Klein: communic 

[00:51:40] Anna Maria Kowalik: communication is huge. Yeah. Uh, you're absolutely on point, Chris, because, uh, one of the biggest questions I ask, uh, get asked all the time is, um, they start out with first a comment that, oh, well I'm, I'm afraid to talk to people, and I walk into a room and I don't know how to approach people.

Uh, so how, so the question then becomes, how do I just introduce myself and how do I, you know, and it's amazing how often I get asked that question. Mm-hmm. And, uh, you know, and the, the answer's just very simple. But, um, it is, uh, you know, definitely something that, you know, Younger people tend to have a little bit of anxiety with, I've noticed, and, and maybe, you know, some of this is a result of, uh, the pandemic era recently and everything.

And, and, you know, I, I can understand where people have, you know, closed into their shells a little bit more, you know, but get out there and swim, you know, uh, I'm captaining this, this, you know, water tonight. Just get out there and, and, and tell them something interesting about yourself. Hello, I'm Anna Marie on, this is what I do.

I'm the captain of the ship this week. You know, whatever. And, and people take to it and, and you know, they, they want to converse. So one-on-one is so essential in this industry. 

[00:53:13] Saul Klein: So you think, you know, the real estate industry, most people that get into real estate sales come to the business from something else.

There are very few people that get into real, like got outta high school, say, I know, knew when I was growing up. It wasn't like, what do you want to be when you grow up? Oh, I wanna be a real estate broker. That's not what the answer was. Right? And so people come into real estate for all the reasons. You know, Chris, you talk about it, whether or not they, they didn't make it where they were or they, that they got laid off for some reason or another, or the economy changed, or they're at the end of the career and they start a new career.

So people that get into real estate, they typically come to it from another walk of life. And so whatever. When you get into the real estate business where, however you come to it, I think you need to look back on your strengths, the things that you did well in that other walk of life, and then just convert it into real estate.

Another thing I think about a lot is, That people get into residential real estate, residential real estate, while it's great and people can make a lot of money, the fallout rate is unbelievable. The attrition is incredible for a number of reasons. Number one, you don't get paid unless you make money, unless you make a sale.

So it's a hundred percent commission. That's not easy in any kind of business. You're an independent contractor. That's a tough way to go. You typically don't have enough capital to get you through the slow periods, and if you happen to hit a downturn in the economy during that, you're out of business.

And so look at real estate and look at residential sales. And you might not be good at residential sales, but you might be good in some other aspect. You mentioned ccim. I have a lot of respect for the people that are ccms. That's an amazing course of study for people. But think about real estate as an industry.

An industry we say under all is the land. And the fact is that you can. Work in residential real estate, but be looking at other things you can do in real. You might like the title business, you might like the mortgage business, you might like the construction side of it, you might like the apartment residential side, you might right there.

So there's, when you learn a little bit about real estate, when you get licensed now what you have is a foundation to find something that you're good at within what I believe is one of the most amazing industries. Again, the, we say it n a r under all is the land and it's true and everything is derived from the land.

And so there's so much opportunity, don't think that you're boxed in and that if you're not successful in residential real estate sales, that real estate's not for you because it might be for you. You just haven't found that niche yet. 

[00:55:43] Dan Wagner: Well, and I wanna highlight, uh, so I'll jumping off your point, um, getting involved, be depart with, um, other, uh, other realtors.

What you could do, um, the global C C5 is the commercial real estate convention, the n a r host. With C C I M and that's gonna be, um, September 28th, 29th and 30th in Atlanta. And I, I'm gonna be going, I know, um, I'm, I'll be speaking at it, but, um, I really recommend anybody that's, uh, watching this take a look at going to C five.

And it's been a wonderful thing. Charlie Oler started this and, um, and Kenny Parcell is continuing it with, uh, the leadership teams of n a r. It's, it's something that's, uh, pretty amazing. And Atlanta's gonna be the first year it's been in Atlanta. It's been in New York for the last few years. So take a look at, uh, c5, 

[00:56:34] Andreas Senie: uh, and we'll include that in the show notes for c5, not to mention c r e Tech coming up in September.

Becca, you were jumping up and down there for a moment. I guess you're going to C5 and CRE Tech. There's a, there's a discount and just make sure you know, uh, that you say, you know, Dan, when you go to C5 for a discount, or you can try, there's so many opportunities to do very well in commercial real estate and residential real estate.

And as Saul pointed out, uh, become a specialist. You know, be a cut above everyone else because everyone and their uncle might be a residential realtor that you know is out there. But not everyone is a specialist in industrial or multifamily or development land. And very few are cms, which was the original college degree in commercial real estate.

It is the highest and most respected, uh, designation you can have Absolutely. In the industry and rightfully so. That being said, we're at the top of the hour here at 6 57. What's the one takeaway for the audience that you'd like to pass on? Keep in mind, we're now global, so other languages are accepted.

Um, Anna Maria, let's start there. C5, we're gonna send the links out in the show notes. What's the one takeaway for you, Anna Maria? 

[00:57:53] Anna Maria Kowalik: You know what? They're really are truly great mentors out there, and so just, uh, hook up with somebody or give me a call and I'll connect you with some wonderful mentors in the industry.

Uh, there's a lot of great people out there, uh, and, uh, many of them are on this program, so kudos to all my fellow, uh, uh, panelists here. We love you. 

[00:58:22] Andreas Senie: Thank you. Uh, we're all gonna get Captain hats with the reco logo. 

[00:58:27] Saul Klein: Absolutely. 

[00:58:28] Andreas Senie: Uh, and Becca, what's the, what's the biggest takeaway? This month from 

[00:58:34] Bekah Carlson: your Well, I really think that 2023 is a year of strategic growth.

I think this is a time where people are exploring new markets and to build on what we've talked about today about communication, it's time to communicate all of that strategy so that people know what you're doing so that they can help you on your 

[00:58:52] Andreas Senie: journey. And if they don't know how to communicate that, they should call you and figure out what marketing really 

[00:58:58] Bekah Carlson: means.

Oh my gosh. We'll help with anything. Of 

[00:59:00] Anna Maria Kowalik: course. That's what we're here for. 

[00:59:03] Andreas Senie: Uh, I love it. And Chris, on the construction side, besides, Hey, people jump in and do the trades cause we need you desperately. What else is the take? 

[00:59:13] Chris Abel: So I'm gonna stick with my theme. I, I started the, uh, the show off with the shout out and shouting out my nephew for something completely unrelated to our show.

Um, so I'm actually gonna continue and say I'm gonna stick with the networking thing and I'm gonna shout out my friend, uh, Julie Brown and encourage everyone. Um, You know, the younger generation, especially to look into a book called this sh, s h i t works, um, by Julie Brown. It's a very simple book. She's an awesome keynote speaker, has her own podcast.

And, um, it's one of those things where I knew a whole lot before I picked that up. And then I picked that up and I found more. And, you know, I, I like to pass on knowledge where wherever I can, so I'll just stick with, uh, with that. So, 

[01:00:01] Andreas Senie: all right, Dan. 

[01:00:04] Dan Wagner: So obviously c5, Cub, come, come. I do wanna highlight that I'm a little bit old school.

I, uh, I think that, um, hard work, uh, outpaces, uh, uh, intelligence sometimes or, or, uh, or book smarts. So, um, hard work is something that, uh, will always get you through. So old school, networking, old school, be involved with n r your state and local associations. That's the way to go. 

[01:00:31] Chris Abel: Okay. 

[01:00:32] Andreas Senie: Ask for the help. The help will be there.

And, uh, persistence over, you know, just keep moving forward. Yep. And, and Saul, 

[01:00:42] Saul Klein: I'd say seek out your local association of realtors. Look for opportunities to participate. There are committees. You'll find something you're interested in. You don't need to run the committee. You wanna participate, you're gonna meet other people.

You're gonna learn things and then go back, always and review the fundamentals. And it, and you're right, Dan, it's all about hard work. It's about willing to do the hard work. And if you do in real estate, there's a spot for you. 

[01:01:09] Andreas Senie: Absolutely put, putting in your dues, doing the hard work, climbing the ladder, so to speak.

Uh, on my email signature, on my end. My, my top thing today, based on everything I've heard and everything that's happening of, uh, an unplanned phone call is never an imposition. I can't tell you how many people I see today. Young professionals that are candidly afraid to get on the phone, let alone meet someone in person.

They just won't get on the phone. They want to email, they want to text, and they're just hidden behind a keyboard. And there's no way to build a relationship and a rapport with people behind a keyboard. You need that, that connection, that in-person growth, like going to c5, like Vendorship and so on. And I will give a hat tip to Mar uh, Marty, who's watching now.

Uh, there is no r replacement for experience, right? Find an experienced person, grab onto them and get on the phone. That's where I sit. I wanna thank our audience for tuning in. I want to thank my co-hosts here for all the incredible things they do in the industry and for coming on the show. Mr. Mendoza, our producer, behind the scenes for all he does.

With that, join us next month and every month, first Thursday of the month. Don't miss, don't forget to check out our sector interviews. Mr. Mendoza, will you lead us out? Thanks for tuning into the Real Estate Round Table, 

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