CRECo.ai Presents The Real Estate Round Table April, 6th 2023

[00:00:00] Andreas Senie: Welcome back to this month's Kreo AI Real Estate Roundtable, your all in one comprehensive view of what's happening across the real estate industry. From some of the industry's earliest technology adopters and foremost, experts in technology, marketing, brokerage, government security, government policy, security, and construction.

As always, this is a three-part show. Part one, introductions for those new tuning in. Who each Roundtable host is, what they do, what's happen. Part Two, sector Focus. We unpack and dive deep into some of the biggest news affecting the industry. And part three, what does that all mean for your business? How can you adapt?

How can you evolve? How can you do better for the next 30 days? I'm Andrea Seni, founder Siri, collaborative brokerage owner and commercial director at kw, as well as a technology growth strategist for both the nonprofit and for-profit sectors. Joining me this month is none other than Saul Klein, realtor emer.

Data Advocate and futurist, the original internet real estate guru and executive editor of Real Estate Times. It's all nice to see you. How are you? Yeah, it's great to be 

[00:01:19] Saul Klein: here. Uh, things are good. You know, the sun's shining. It's not raining, so I don't have any complaints. 

[00:01:25] Andreas Senie: And car washes running, but we're gonna get to it.

People are washing their car again, and that's good news. Also, joining us, Chris Abel, membership director at Associated Builders and Contractors of Connecticut, and member of the Society of Marketing Professionals. Chris, nice to see you, my friend. Good to see you, Northeasterner. 

[00:01:43] Chris Able: Oh, yeah, yeah. I'm enjoying the weather.

Not, not so much, probably as much as, uh, SA is out California, but I can, I can, I can deal with this 60, 61, day 40 when you wake up scenario 

[00:01:55] Andreas Senie: and all. And let's not forget our from a little colder lands, Chicago Land, Anna Maria Kulik, SVP Director of Business Development over at Inland Green Capital, all things green.

Going green is always. 

[00:02:10] Anna Maria Kowalik: And it's wonderful because today the sun is shining here too. So it's shining from sea to sea basically. And, uh, uh, it, it things are getting pretty green out here actually. Uh, so spring is almost sprung, but yes, we are a little bit colder than the rest of you. We're about 54 degrees today.

[00:02:30] Andreas Senie: And let's not forget and how could we ever forget? None other than Dan Wagner also see SVP at Inland Government Relations. All things policy. 10 31. Dan, nice to see you as always sporting your, your inland banner. You always put me to shame. 

[00:02:45] Dan Wagner: Well, it's great to be here. And of course, I'm the official Abraham Lincoln Museum for Inland too.

So I have all the, my Lincoln artifacts here in my office as. Wow. I love it. I love it. I'm the land of leaking. There you go. 

[00:02:58] Andreas Senie: So guys, I'm gonna need your help. If you can't, if the audience can't tell by now, I'm a little, uh, my throat's a little dry. I'm gonna do my best as we walk through the episode, but if I have to mute, just pick up and keep going.

I'm sure you won't have an issue with that. That'll be all being said, Dan. You're, you're to my immediate right. I've gotta. Biden's pulling 10 30 ones, sort of capping them or, you know, what's going on in the policy world that's, that's really causing concern. 

[00:03:27] Dan Wagner: Well, I gotta tell you, I, uh, it's kind of like that movie again.

The, the Groundhog Day with Bill Murray. Uh, going back to what, uh, president Biden wanted to try to. Um, eliminate, uh, last year, the 10 31. Then he said, I'll just cap it at 500, and then he did it again. So he just put out his budget again and he wants to cap the 10 31 at 500. He wants to, uh, get rid of, uh, sep uh, basis.

He wants to double capital gains taxes. But, 

[00:03:55] Andreas Senie: but what does that mean when they cap the 10 31? If they eliminate 10 31, what happens to those properties for the people to, so 

[00:04:02] Dan Wagner: with, if the, the idea of cap at 10 31. Absolutely. Yeah. It's, it's killing the 10 31. Um, so that's, that's the, the reality. So yeah, there's, there's no capping anything cuz there, it, you really couldn't in commercial real estate.

It just doesn't work. But I, there's lots to, uh, unpack with, with that. And I don't wanna, if you want me to go into my, uh, It's my soliloquy, but I could go into that if you want. 

[00:04:26] Andreas Senie: No, no. Well, there'll be time for it. Let's, uh, let's, and especially as I run out of vocal cords here, 

[00:04:32] Saul Klein: and when you say they cap it, is that like $500,000 in gain?

What are the, what's the 500 cap, is that the gain from 

[00:04:40] Dan Wagner: the No, it's the, the value of the property. The value of the 

[00:04:44] Saul Klein: property, 

[00:04:44] Andreas Senie: yeah. Wow. So your car wash is already capped. Yeah. 

[00:04:48] Dan Wagner: You can't. It doesn't, it's not very much, is it? So, no, not, not at all. 

[00:04:56] Andreas Senie: Well, so that would force the owner's pe Why would I sell if I'm gonna get hit with that huge tax 

[00:05:01] Dan Wagner: bill?

Well, and that's, I mean, to go into it a little bit is That's exactly right. What will happen is there be a complete. Utter, uh, shutdown of the transaction activity for commercial real estate. And as we all know that this has been the tax code for over a hundred years. And there's a reason for it is because every time, uh, the elect, the elected officials come at it and say, this is for fat cats and a loophole, then we're able to, uh, get all of our.

You know, the forces gathered and we have a very diverse coalition that educates the elected officials. Um, what's, what the reality is though, is that the 10 31, nothing is gonna happen to it. Uh, the president's budget was dead on arrival. Uh, because we have, uh, divided government now in Washington, so by having the house be, uh, in charged by the Republicans, there's nothing that's gonna happen with this proposal.

But what this means is that we, as commercial real estate practitioners, we have to be vigilant to always be ready to educate members of Congress about this. It's kind of, you know, before all the people that came before us in this commercial real estate world, That we're able to keep the 10 31, which I believe is like the 401k real estate.

I mean, there's so many great aspects we'll get into is that we have to make sure and know who our members of Congress are and be able to talk to them to let them know the importance of the, not only 10 31, but why, you know, doubling capital gains is bad. Getting rid of stepped up basis, uh, is another horrible thing.

So, um, we have, we have a lot to talk about, but I will, uh, I will wait until, uh, a little bit later on in the show. 

[00:06:42] Andreas Senie: It's, uh, so I, I recently was lucky enough to host the mayor of Stanford and we were talking about different things and it would seem the government would want to do as much as possible. To help us not, uh, prohibit or inhibit our ability to transact.

At least that's the take I got at the local level. But Saul, before we go dive deep in that direction, what's going on in California? How are things on your end? 

[00:07:05] Saul Klein: Well, you know, our market's pretty good here in San Diego. Not a whole lot changes. Just different ways to buy fire, different ways to sell things.

You know, there was something interesting in la they're implementing this mansion tax. Which is, uh, anything that's, uh, that sells for over 5 million, uh, they'll be like a, uh, 4% sales tax. Uh, added transfer tax and anything over 10 million, something like a 6.5% tax. And it doesn't matter whether you made any money or not, it's, there's gonna be a tax on the transfer.

And of course, you know, houses, uh, a million dollars doesn't buy a mansion in California. So again, this is in LA County, but that could spread, you know, things start in California and they spread across the United States and then they figure out they're illegal, right? So, You gotta watch what's happening here because it could affect, could affect everybody.

So that kind of got my attention the other day when, when I saw that they're actually, they're gonna use this money to take care of the homeless, they say, but there's no plan to do it. You know, the government has a way to take in money, but there's no plan what they're gonna do with it. Um, I'm always suspect.

So, uh, so we 

[00:08:14] Dan Wagner: just gotta do, uh, Bayer elected here in, uh, in Chicago, uh, Brandon Johnson and his, uh, one of his first proposals out of the box is gonna be to triple, uh, transfer taxes on any property over a million dollars. Geez. 

[00:08:28] Andreas Senie: And well, it's just to make up the difference between the proposed cut on the 10 31 exchange.

Right. Just eliminate the profits. You can get it down. 

[00:08:36] Dan Wagner: There's lots of, there's lots of wild, uh, wild ideas. He wants to raise 800 million and, and, uh, real estate is gonna be a big piggy bank for him. Well, 

[00:08:46] Saul Klein: you know, when, whenever the government spends more than it, uh, than it should, and that's most of the time, one of the places they always look is at real estate because that's where the money is.

And so we have to be very vi. On all fronts, I think on all types of properties because if the government can come in and take money from you for a transfer, whether or not you made any money on it, right, because it's not on your gain. It's like the sales price. That's what the proposed, what the, the law is here, and I'm sure that's what they're talking about in Chicago on the sale price.

Well, that's just stifling to. To real estate? Well, 

[00:09:22] Dan Wagner: one of my good friends is a, is a big luxury broker in this, in the city. And right after the election, he, he literally called me up and he said, oh my God, I just lost three commissions. I had three big, uh, condos that were over, you know, over a million dollars were gonna sell.

And he was gonna, you know, he had three buyers and all three buyers for three different properties said that now that, uh, Brandon Johnson's now gonna be the mayor, they're not coming to Chicago. So they said, so he lost the three, uh, deal. Right after the election, 

[00:09:53] Andreas Senie: they're coming to Connecticut. Remember that conversation with Dr.

Yon and I where you said Connecticut's not the place to be, Connecticut's the place to be. Just, just, just bring that back up to Aaron's attention. 

[00:10:03] Chris Able: If you're a basketball 

[00:10:04] Andreas Senie: fan, it is, uh, a basketball fan, but the only place the government seems to be throwing money is, is at green energy. Anything green, um, on your side of the fence.

And then Chris, you were saying that there's not enough room in the sandbox for the construction world. The, the GC. What are, what do you think Anna is, are you, 

[00:10:21] Anna Maria Kowalik: so, I, I, I must say that, uh, C pace, uh, activity has picked up quite a bit, um, also because it is fairly recession proof and, uh, whether or not anyone thinks we're in a recession or near one, or coming out of one, or however you wanna look at it.

Uh, the consensus is that, uh, yeah, lending is tighter. Um, interest rates are still volatile, even though, uh, we've seen a recent downward trend. Um, so, so basically, um, Uh, what SEA-based does is, uh, I, I can tell you that our rates now are about at pre pandemic level. And, and so, um, there's not that much of a, a, a difference and it's always less than half of, uh, what construction lending is out there for, and, and it has a better.

Uh, quality, uh, being a long-term financing product, uh, in comparison to mezzanine or bridge lending. So, um, it's, it's really a great option. Um, uh, we're, we're working deals and hopefully they'll come to fruition, uh, because you never know, uh, in this climate. But, um, uh, things are looking up and looking greener.

Like I said, even out the window today, you have much greener, 

[00:11:50] Andreas Senie: always going green with sea pace. Um, speaking of going green, the construction industry is on the move. Everybody's building again, Chris. 

[00:12:00] Chris Able: Yeah, I mean, for the most part, the, you know, every, every contractor that I've been speaking to and this.

Obviously, uh, it is kind of a broad term. They're just all in different, different spaces, meaning, you know, I spoke to a concrete, uh, contractor yesterday who is not busy at all right now, but jobs are gonna be picking up in May or June, which actually surprised me that he is not busy right now. Two minutes later, someone calls and says, Hey, do you know any concrete contractors?

And then I go back to, and I'm like, when's this kicking off? Oh, probably June or July. So I'm curious as to. A week from now, uh, if they speak to one another, which I'm sure they will, if all of a sudden the guy who's. Not busy now, if he's gonna be able to squeeze out enough people to help on this new project.

It seems like there's, the contractors are trying to work as hard as they can together. I was in a room at 400 last week at our event and they are willing to network and they wanna network and they wanna, the GCs want more subs and the CMS want more subs and they're willing to, you know, take chances with different ones.

Um, it's like the tail of two cities right now where in one. Everything is super competitive. The associates I'm dealing with are super, super, super, super competitive. Um, the claws are out and they want to. Hey, what did, what did they say over there? That type of thing. Hey, uh, I heard this. And they're taking every piece of information that they hear and they're coming to a person like me who's in a, in a director position at a, at an association and basically saying, I'm hearing this.

I heard this. What'd this person say? And I'm like, six months, A year ago, two years ago. In the back of my head, I'm going, that wouldn't have bothered. You would've just moved on to something new in other business. But instead, everyone's got their rabbit ears, you know, the rabbit ears out. No, no pun intended for, for Easter coming along and they got, kinda got their claws out waiting to see what's, uh, what's, you know, what's next.

But um, and then we have some out-of-state GCs and CMS coming in and getting a lot of the work, which are at our, our GCs and CMS seem to be going outta state and getting their work. So as long as I could feed the subs, everyone seems to. Relatively happy. Um, but it's, it's, it's different. And this picked up in the past, I would say in the past two weeks, the past two to three weeks, I've had more, I'm just gonna say it, more headaches coming across the desk and more things that need to be addressed and they wanna addressed yesterday than I've seen in probably a couple years, which is a good sign in the sense that I feel like as far as the pandemic goes, everything's kind of.

Everything's open. They want to meet, they wanna talk, they wanna, but it's also a little bit, um, interesting. So I think my piece of advice for the end is tell everyone to kind of be, kind to your centers of influence, be kind to those centers of influence people that you, you lean on because, uh, you know, I, everyone's kind of coming.

You know, everyone's worried about what they have going on in that 20 minutes. You have to speak with them or 30 minutes, you have to speak with them. They're not thinking about what people have the other 23 and a half hours in the day. So it's interesting. Makes it fun, keeps, keeps me having to stay, stay sharp and on point.

But, um, it's, it's, it has, I've, I haven't seen this, seen it like this in four or five years. 

[00:15:17] Andreas Senie: What was the exception of? C pace lowering its rates. I think I heard Annamaria say, 

[00:15:23] Anna Maria Kowalik: well, uh, some of, some of the treasury yields and, uh, have been going down, uh, recently, but, um, we're expecting in May there's, you know, it sounds like the Fed's gonna do another, uh, increase and.

Uh, if that happens, who knows what's gonna happen to the rates again, you know, everything's a, a moving target these days. It's 

[00:15:44] Andreas Senie: a balance. Um, but there, there's, it's this urgency that Chris started to bring up. Um mm-hmm. And I certainly feel the brokerage community is out there buzzing, working on. Filling the pipeline, I guess, let's call it deals are gonna get done.

And we've all been through this before. Um, I don't see to, um, Dan, your, to what your point was about 10 31. We're having enough trouble transacting. Why, why even bring that to the table now? It's just not the right time, if ever I agree with you there. And outside of Sunny California, what can we do? Go 

[00:16:15] Dan Wagner: ahead.

The other thing that's out there, um, is the waters of the US. So, uh, the National Association of Realtors and, you know, big coalitions of people, um, have filed, uh, lawsuits against, uh, the government to stop the e p A from implementing this idea that, um, anything that is like a drainage ditch or, uh, retention pond is a navigable waterway.

So that's another, uh, roadblock for developers to have to go through. The US Army Corps of Engineers. And there was interestingly today, um, the first of all, the house passed, uh, resolution saying that, uh, this, you know, to to, to block, you know, what the, uh, EPA is doing. And then the Senate actually passed, uh, the SA that passed the, the house was Bill in a bipartisan way.

Democrats came on board, which is very unusual. So a bill is gonna be put onto the president's desk and to say that, uh, that. Rule is gonna be gone, but the president's gonna veto it. And in order to override your veto, you need two-thirds of vote and there's no two-thirds vote in the Senate to be able to do that or the house.

So, um, we now, then the big fight will be in the courts, and that's, uh, what the, the whole real estate community is, is involved with. And again, another. Example of paying your dues to N na r n Na r is Russell Riggs is the staff person at N na r. Really in charge of this. And working with, uh, Katie Johnson and all the team in the law department.

They are, uh, just so wonderful for fighting for us. But developers, farmers, everybody's just crazed about what this means for. You 

[00:18:00] Saul Klein: know, you make a great point, and that is that people often lose sight of the value that comes from pay induced to Naar, and they lose sight of the value that comes from rpac, uh, the Political action committee and, and nobody really fights for private property rights, like the National Association of Realtors, and that's for homeowners, for commercial brokers, for agents.

For everybody and, uh, and it seems like they're people are coming. It's interesting be right now with the economy, where it is and where we think it's going, and the fact that the government's spending so much money and the fact that we got inflation and yet their regulations and things to inhibit the use and the growth of, uh, real estate and money and, um, yeah, I, I can't say enough good for what n r does.

For, for property, private property rights. It's seems people don't realize any longer, a lot of people don't, how important private 

[00:18:52] Dan Wagner: property rights are. Well, and that Saul, you could said it better. I to, I totally agree. N a r The other unusual thing is that we're probably the one of the last bipartisan organizations, because of what you just said, with private property rights, you have some very, uh, liberal members, some very conservative members, and they might disagree on a million other issues.

But what, when it comes to private property rights, We all lock arms and we walk into Washington together. And that blows their minds because every member of Congress has a realtor attached to them. And those realtors are boots on the ground in their district, and they know where all the people are who got involved in the campaigns of the congressman or woman.

And we have that fpc, that federal political coordinator that is able. Really have the ear of the member of Congress. So the, I think one of the most powerful groups in Washington are the realtors. And for, you know, not just when, when you say they are, people say, oh, that's just the, the residential brokers.

No, about 51% of what they do in Washington is commercial. And really, as we all know, it all, we all interact together all the time. With, uh, with RPAC and everything else, I'm pr I'm a proud, uh, golden R Rpac Hall of Fame President, president Circle member, and, um, I just can't tell everybody enough that that's a really good investment.

[00:20:13] Saul Klein: Yeah, no doubt about it. Agree a hundred 

[00:20:14] Andreas Senie: percent. Well, and I don't wanna leave a b ABC out out, Nicole's here. Really most any notable association, what they do for their community, for their trade, for their, for their area, their sector, uh, if they're run right, they do amazing things. They're out there lobbying for the right things and the right reasons, and they're well known.

N a r is the biggest and the best, and I'm a proud card caring member. Not for as long as you two gentlemen, but we'll, uh, we'll work our way there, uh, hopefully over. And it's, uh, it's really great. I think the next Capital Day is me, is coming up in May. Yes. 

[00:20:48] Dan Wagner: Yeah. Yep. Yeah. May 8th. Um, Inland's actually gonna be a sponsor of the commercial, uh, real estate cocktail party that's gonna be on, uh, in the evening of May 8th.

Uh, so if anybody's in DC why should DC make sure you come and, uh, I'll be speaking at it as one of the, uh, as a sponsor, uh, of the event. But it's a really good time and it's fun to, uh, to get everybody together. It's like, it's like, you know, our family, you come together and you see a Bob Turner from Memphis and you know, you see Nancy Lane and I mean all these different people and it's, uh, it's fun.

So, uh, art Sal Sal, are you gonna be there? No, I won't be 

[00:21:26] Saul Klein: there, sir. I went. 28 years in a row and, and when. And I don't, just don't travel as much anymore. But I tell you, there was nothing like going to the, uh, the Sheraton Wardman Park and, uh, the Omni Sorum and seeing, like you said, seeing people who you, who you know and who you trust and who you love, and, and getting something done in Washington, DC 

[00:21:46] Andreas Senie: Yep.

And building that last relationship. Go ahead, Anna. Maria. 

[00:21:51] Anna Maria Kowalik: Yeah, I, on the C Pace side, we have, uh, so Inland Green is gonna be, uh, one of the hosts, uh, for one of the events. Uh, C Pace Alliance, uh, is our, uh, advocate in the, uh, commercial industry across the nation. And so they are coming to Chicago. Uh, Uh, third week of May, so right as the, usually all the brokers are out at, uh, I C S C, uh, out in, uh, Vegas, uh, we're gonna be hosting here in Chicago.

Um, also, uh, the other definitive, uh, uh, national organization, um, pace Nation. Is having their, uh, conference back in person, uh, for the first time this year since the pandemic, so June 6th and seventh in New York. So, um, it's, so things are picking up and organizations both, um, uh, you know, uh, more fraternal and, and also those that do advocacy are, are really, um, uh, getting busy.

These. 

[00:23:03] Andreas Senie: And getting together. Yes. People have to come together to very important, get to know each other and to grow that lasting relationship. Um, I remember some of my early I C S C events and, and others, and they're, they're fantastic. They do tend to all group together, which is just terrible planning on everyone's part if we could space them up.

But, um, May 8th was, you said Capital day? Yep. That's pretty. For those of us who want to go out of country. I C S C C R E, uh, excuse me, I C S C is also in May in country. And then we've got C R E Tech London on May 8th as well. So, uh, we're more on that later in the show. Uh, Chris is ABC throwing big events as well.

You just said you had 400 people. Yeah, we had our, 

[00:23:47] Chris Able: uh, we had our annual membership meeting, uh, last a week ago, uh, last Thursday. It was, uh, up a hundred. We were right under 400 people, up a hundred from last year. Great. Um, wow. There was another, and I will say there's another event going on next door in the same facility.

So it's the first time in a long time where I've seen, you know, that facility. I have two. You know, kind of side by side, um, whether they're later or not, didn't matter. It was just nice to see so many people out and about and kind of the whole stigma that was, you know, weighing over us over the past couple years.

You know, kind of somewhat lifted, but we had, um, what's interesting is most we don't, within our chapter, we don't, we were celebrating, uh, new members, member milestones, all sorts of different stuff. It was a, it was a good time actually. You, you were at the event last. 

[00:24:33] Andreas Senie: Yes, it was a great event. You had quite a nice mic intro.

Oh, yeah, 

[00:24:37] Chris Able: yeah, yeah, yeah. I, I, I tend to, I come off of that and I usually, a few people are like, oh, what was that all about? But, uh, we'll leave that for another day. But, um, the, uh, like I said, the networking was, was, was tremendous. Everyone, everyone was looking to, you know, Hey, can I talk to this person? Can you introduce me to this person?

And it was, uh, it was a good time, but I agree there. There's a lot of events going on right now. There's just, I mean, we, ABC National had their, um, conference a couple weeks ago, and it was the same week as the, you know, Conex out in, in Las Vegas. And no sooner did those two lift up that, I mean, in our area, the Northeast Hardscape Expo, and you saw a lot of people with tired faces because they, they were either in Vegas or they were down in, uh, Florida for the ABC.

Convention, but it's just good energy. It's good, you know, it's good energy. It's good to be out there with, uh, it's good to look at even the local chamber stuff and see that they have, you know, 1, 2, 3 things a month. I went to a business development bootcamp last week. A bunch of architects and engineers and construction folks, and it people are just, they're out.

People are coming out and then it's, that's one thing I, I will, I will never complain about. 

[00:25:56] Anna Maria Kowalik: About Chris. I was just at a multi chamber event today. Yeah. And, uh, they had expo booths and I held one of those and um, and then they had, uh, someone from the Federal Reserve speaking actually Yes. To, uh, the multi chambers, but we had probably about 400 people.

Yeah. 

[00:26:16] Andreas Senie: Yeah. It's, well, business is happening and continues to happen. Yes. It's, it's, you know, yes. There's economic headwinds. Yes. We're navigating unchartered waters. And a bunch of other things. But there's plenty of opportunities out there and people willing to strike if you can get the parties together, which is why I love the brokerage side of things.

It's all about bringing people together. And the tech continues. All I hear is chat, G P T and, and these associations. Are you guys, we're all members of different associations. Here are, are people are new, is the next generation, are new people flocking to the association? Do they? Very 

[00:26:51] Anna Maria Kowalik: much so, yes. I see young people all the time.

I, I sometimes feel like the oldest person in the room. So, uh, no, it's a, it's great to see that and, uh, a l a lot more of the organizations are beginning to develop mentorship programs as well, uh, to be able to, you know, deal with this onslaught of, uh, young people coming to the fore. So this is wonderful.

This is, this is the, the future of the industry. 

[00:27:22] Dan Wagner: Well, I know, go ahead, Dan. I went to, I just was in Colorado a couple weeks ago, and for the Realtors Land Institute in the little sidebar, I was, uh, went for a run outside the hotel and I was out for just a little ways and I was surrounded by five coyotes, so I make sure to turn around slowly.

Walk, get back into the hotel. Well, 

[00:27:44] Andreas Senie: that's why real estate, real estate, real estate people travel and pack. Yeah. Out a lot. 

[00:27:50] Chris Able: Not exactly the networking 

[00:27:51] Dan Wagner: you're planning on doing that was not the networking, but, but they're the realtor Land Institute, that's all the farm brokers and ranch brokers are on the country.

And again, just like Chris, they had. Like 400 some people is up by a hundred and the young, uh, members that are coming and being a part of it was just terrific to see. And of course, as we all know, n AR has the Y P N Young Professionals Network, which is really just always growing strong. So it is fun to is, and Maria, to bring that up, it makes a lot of sense to see, uh, the youth get stayed involved with our organiz.

[00:28:27] Andreas Senie: Yes. So with the exception of an increased gas tax here in Connecticut, or, or increased, um, wealth tax in California, I don't hear any negativity on this month's round table businesses happening. 

[00:28:42] Anna Maria Kowalik: There's plenty hits. Justin. You know, are we really gonna talk 

[00:28:46] Saul Klein: about 

[00:28:46] Dan Wagner: it? 

[00:28:47] Chris Able: Dig through. Lemme dig, lemme dig through a few of my emails from today and I'll give you some examples.

[00:28:52] Andreas Senie: No, I'll throw 

[00:28:52] Saul Klein: a piece. I'll throw a piece. And, and that, that, that the, uh, the, the case, uh, referred to as Molar versus the National Association of Realtors, which is against, uh, four major franchises and, uh, the National Association of Realtors and 20 MLSs in the country attained a class action certification.

And the damages are estimated in the billions of dollars. It has to do with something called the Broker Compensation Clause. Mm-hmm. Which was a positive move made in the nineties to move MLSs away from being a unilateral offer of sub-agency to an offer of compensation, which is one of the pillars of mls.

And that's being challenged and attained, uh, class action, uh, certification here in the last couple weeks. And the thing that. It's on. The negative side to me is when you talk to many, many people in real estate, they don't even know that this is going on. Potentially they could change the way in which real estate is bought and sold.

Now on the positive side, no matter what happens, real estate's gonna continue to be bought and sold, and there might be new ways to do it and, and, uh, you know, new people making this happen and new compensation structure. But there is a major, major, uh, piece of litigation going on right now on the residential real estate side that has the potential to alter, uh, multiple listing services.

[00:30:15] Andreas Senie: That's right. And for those that don't know, that 5%, 6% or whatever the percentage is, generally gets split between two parties, buyer and seller, broker, um, and then their brokers. And it's, it, it dwindles down the commercial side's a a little more resilient to the argument because we, we have to agree these commissions, it's all part of negotiation.

Um, but it is, it's big news on the ml. Part of their terms is just that, what is the fair compensation between parties and then what's fair to disclose? Um, this is not, this is a, this is not new news, but it sounds like there was a major shift in the milestones of the court case. 

[00:30:51] Saul Klein: Well, the big news is, is certification for 

[00:30:53] Andreas Senie: class action.

That was, that's that, that's 

[00:30:57] Saul Klein: the big piece that's happened here. So, uh, and these types of things don't, don't. Resolve themselves overnight. We're looking at, you know, years for, as these things kind of work their way through. And again, once again, uh, having the National Association of Realtors as an advocate and working for the MLSs.

But we're gonna see things that, um, Mergers entities coming together. People who are, are sitting on boards of directors of MLSs and associations really need to begin to talk about this, weighing the liability potential that's there. This case is going back and looking at all the real estate sales from like 2000 and these 20 MLS market areas from 2015 to like 2019 and, uh, going after a certain portion of commissions and damages that could.

Uh, devastating to some of these entities. 

[00:31:47] Andreas Senie: The MLSs themselves, the brokers are safe. We get to keep our money. Right. 

[00:31:51] Saul Klein: Well, I, you know, that's these, it's, I think it's, uh, prognostication at this point to imagine that that might be the case. I think the agents probably are a little bit more, more, um, insulated.

Yeah, probably, and, and probably the best thing people could begin to do in residential real estate today is look at the utilization. And we've been saying this for years of buyer broker agreements. And, uh, because that could take some of the sting out of this, but there's probably not a whole lot you can do for the, the years in the past, uh, except hope for a win.

And, uh, that doesn't seem all that likely. We'll just have to wait and see. But it's worth knowing about. And if you're practicing real estate, it's worth knowing about because more than likely your competitors don't know. And, uh, so you'll be able to talk about it in an intelligent way, and that's a differentiator.

[00:32:39] Andreas Senie: Well, I certainly chilled the conversation I asked for negative and, and you, and you, and you hit it hook, line, and sinker right in the pocket. I, I love commercial for good reason. Go 

[00:32:48] Dan Wagner: ahead, Dan. The other, the other negative, uh, from my, my, uh, commercial, uh, brokers, uh, that I know in the, in the world are highlighting that, uh, with the, the.

The rate's up so high, the price of, uh, of values of commercial is not going down. And so it's hard to, you know, come up with deals because of that. And then some people are starting to talk about in, in Wall Street Journal and stuff, they're talking about how, um, the values of, uh, because of all this, of commercial properties are starting to be impacted.

So those are, uh, some things to look into the. 

[00:33:23] Andreas Senie: Yeah, it's, uh, fair market price. What, what a right-minded and informed person's willing to pay with a right-minded and informed person's willing to sell, coming together, misquoted. But, uh, that's fair market value. We're, we don't know where that is today between our buyers and sellers more often than not.

Absolutely. Thank you. That. And c pace is the only thing out there that just keeps on plucking away, apparently. 

[00:33:50] Anna Maria Kowalik: No, it's really good. And I like to be positive more than negative. 

[00:33:54] Andreas Senie: Well, there's, it's always silver linings. Go ahead. Well, 

[00:33:57] Anna Maria Kowalik: but, you know, but it is, uh, an instrument that's repaid, you know, via the, uh, tax assessment process.

And, and, uh, of course here in our state, uh, Dan's and mine, uh, Taxes are, are very high, uh, and, uh, particularly, uh, in, uh, in our county and, uh, surrounding counties. Uh, the Chicago land area, uh, is in very high demand. And, and it's because it does well, it's the center of the, uh, of the country and, and so much, um, Commerce goes through us.

And so, uh, for some of the right reasons, some of the taxes are higher. But, um, you know, it, it is, uh, it makes people step back a a bit and consider, uh, you know, have second thoughts about, um, doing business here. But, uh, you know, and, and now it, like Dan said earlier, we don't know, you know, it's, uh, where are things going to go with the city of Chicago?

Um, and, and if there are going to be, uh, some exorbitant prohibitive taxes that, uh, you know, might, uh, put a damper on business in the 

[00:35:13] Dan Wagner: future. Yeah. Anne Maria, I just was at a lunch day and I had somebody ask me, um, what are, what are the things that can be that, that can be put on a, um, the C pace? What, what are some of.

What, what are the, the list of things that 

[00:35:26] Anna Maria Kowalik: can be, oh goodness. Uh, so several categories, energy efficiency, uh, just simple H V A C replacements, uh, for aging units. Uh, uh, if you're replacing any building envelope, To make the building more air and water tight. Uh, so, uh, roofing and, uh, additional insulation windows, uh, uh, some exterior, uh, door configurations.

Uh, interior, exterior, l e d lighting. Um, uh, electrical systems, uh, building automation, uh, elevator, uh, refurbishment and modernization. Uh, can have a lot of, uh, uh, energy savings. Um, then, uh, another category is the renewables. Uh, solar, wind, turbine, uh, turbine. Uh, we've got all kinds of other, uh, Potential new, uh, Uh, types of processes.

You know, you hear about green hydrogen and, and how is that going to work into, you know, some of, uh, uh, facilities, equipment and, and whatnot. Um, of course, you know, then you've got, uh, electrification and heat pump systems and, uh, geothermal, et cetera. Um, Then when you look at, uh, water conservation, there are a lot of measures to be had, uh, with interior and exterior plumbing.

Uh, exterior. You might have rain sensors on irrigate landscape, irrigation systems, interior loaf. Low toilets and, uh, automated faucetry, all of these things, uh, can have an impact on consumption, uh, of utilities and, and therefore on expenditure. Um, and, and then there's a, a great, uh, Uh, resiliency category that kind of is a catchall for different things across the country.

So perhaps in, uh, uh, Saul's neck of the world on the West Coast, uh, uh, when you're building a new building, uh, you might be putting in some earthquake resiliency measures and those kinds of, uh, mitigative efforts in the construction process, uh, can be, uh, placeable. On the west, uh, east coast or anywhere really, you know, uh, anywhere where there's, uh, uh, flooding and there's, uh, mitigation for that, that could be eligible.

Um, the also, uh, we like to put in that category ev charging infrastructure and the, the electrification of vehicles, uh, throughout the nation and, and the growth of that area. That's one thing. Uh, things like permeable pavers are allowable in in certain areas, and, uh, lead pipe abatement, uh, uh, things that make, uh, other systems run more efficiently and consume less energy and save on utilities, expenditures.

All of those kinds of things can be a part of the C pace. Uh 

[00:38:51] Andreas Senie: uh So optimizing your assets, improving from a C to a B. Yes, yes. As an example, depending on, as an example. 

[00:38:59] Saul Klein: Absolutely. And new construction 

[00:39:01] Dan Wagner: is always, people don't think you can do new construction, 

[00:39:03] Saul Klein: right? 

[00:39:04] Anna Maria Kowalik: Oh, absolutely. It's a great gap filler in the capital stack, you know, because you might have, uh, you might only be able to get, uh, uh, 60.

75%, uh, uh, loan to cost on, uh, your construction project. And, and then you've got a certain amount of owner equity that goes into it, but you might have that gap in between and, and, uh, C PACE can take the eligible measures, line items, uh, straight out of the construction budget and be able to finance those particular items.

Yeah, so you can help talk about it and help spread the word 

[00:39:44] Andreas Senie: everyone. Well, it, it's interesting cuz plenty of deals are, are slowly getting done. They're still getting done, but yes, everyone's looking a little closer. Yes. So if you can move the needle, 5%, 3%, whatever it is, by adding in the C pace component, all of a sudden that construction financing for the actual build.

Is more appealing to the bank and and so on. So that's very interesting. Totally. But it's, but it's all about having the right people out there to help you and the, the right advisors. He paces, his big news always has been forced some time. I am sorry to hear that Chicago isn't doing well. Send your clients to Connecticut.

We're doing well. Just kidding. It's real, but it's market by market as the is is really what I'm driving at. You've gotta, there's opportunity, growth and cycles in every market in different levels. You just have to draw your own boundaries. That's right. Find your own programs. 

[00:40:35] Saul Klein: You know, actually you said that then we were talking the other day, like certain.

Town areas are suffering, but certain adjacent downtown areas are prospering. Mm-hmm. And so it's a, it's a matter of finding those opportunities that are out there and they're, 

[00:40:51] Andreas Senie: they're there. In your, in your state, in your, in your county. And I'm picking on Chicago. Chicago's doing incredibly well. I'm just, just cuz you guys brought it up Beautiful.

And I got slammed on that prior sector interview. No, and 

[00:41:03] Anna Maria Kowalik: it's a beautiful, and you know, I'm born and raised in Chicago and love the city and have always, you know, uh, appreciated it. And one of the cleanest cities, you know, uh, still, uh, despite. So many different mayors and you know, it, it doesn't matter. Uh, people take pride in, in the Midwest, I think in general.

And, 

[00:41:24] Andreas Senie: uh, no, there, there is still a, a. And, uh, I don't know how I'll sit. There's still a gentleman gentlemanly walk and talk and handshake in Chicago and in the, in that area, the way people interact, there's a charm to it. I like it. Anyways, or in other areas, interestingly enough. And I want to ask this group, so now we've, we've seen this mad rush out of cities into Florida to Sunbelt different areas.

Different investors have said to me over the last month, well, we're done with the the Sunbelt, because that's where everybody flocked to and that's gonna see the biggest swings as things shift. Are we now, in your opinion, gonna see a return to, uh, different markets, the Northeast, uh, for investment? As things stabilize over the next three years, five years?

[00:42:15] Dan Wagner: Well, that's an interesting question. I know that, uh, that we're, uh, always still very, you know, excited about Florida, excited about, uh, Texas, uh, Tennessee, great places, um, Arizona. Um, so we're all in, uh, with 

[00:42:32] Andreas Senie: all in on the Sunbelt. Yeah. Where it's sunny and, and you can go greener with 

[00:42:35] Dan Wagner: solar. Well, the other big deal is the taxes.

I mean, you know, places that are, uh, that are really, you know, good with taxes is, is so wonderful because you don't have these swings of property tax that all of a sudden you have triple property hees. And so, That's another important aspect of all this, and I 

[00:42:53] Anna Maria Kowalik: think you have to re remember that boomers, baby boomers, um, are really driving a lot of this movement and, and so, uh, that's not going to cease for, for a little while yet.

We're just at the beginning of that. Um, 

[00:43:13] Saul Klein: Grouping. 

[00:43:14] Andreas Senie: So shift. Shift in ownership. Shift in in living. Yes. And location. And zoom just doesn't cut it. We've all kind of agreed that we have to get back in person, which is a good thing overall. I'm happy to hear it, 

[00:43:27] Dan Wagner: but I'm, I'm glad we're not in person right now because I do not wanna get your cold.

[00:43:33] Andreas Senie: I wouldn't wish this on my worst enemy. Thank you for bearing with me on it. God bless you. It's, uh, it, it. The networking was well worth it. But 

[00:43:45] Saul Klein: you shook a wrong man. Yeah, no. Who knows? There's so 

[00:43:50] Dan Wagner: people like show people. They, they, you know, they, you still do it. I mean, that's good 

[00:43:54] Andreas Senie: job, Andre. Yeah. No, and thank you.

Thank you for putting up with, uh, with, with my, uh, my throat here. Here we are. It's, it's April, right? We're we're headed. We have high holidays, summer's coming. Spring has sprung. We're at 15 minutes to the top of the hour. What's the biggest thing you would encourage from your sector? From your, from your side as a mentor, as a sector expert?

As a pioneer? Looking backwards. Looking forwards. What's the big takeaway for the audience you want to give? And again to my right, Dan in Sure. The Abraham Library. 

[00:44:35] Dan Wagner: Absolutely. Abraham Lincolns are, is the guy. Um, you know, I always tax, the tax law is just the very, you know, bread and butter of our industry.

And it's so important that if you don't have a relationship with your member of Congress that you really need. You need to be able to be able to go to their office, know, uh, their staff people. They, the, the typical staffer is about 22 years old and they really don't know a lot about real estate cuz they have so many issues on their plate.

So I always just highlight, you have to go and, and get to know these people and explain what you do and explain how. Uh, commercial real estate, like the 10 31, how that impacts your community. I know that, um, over, uh, what 976,000 jobs are created by the 10 31. You have the Just in Naperville, which is right near, uh, where we are here at Oakbrook Naperville, Illinois.

They had a, a dark Kmart for many years and the owner of the Kmart was older gentleman. He had, you know, little, uh, nail salons and other little things in this strip mall, but really it was debt. It was, you know, weeds and looks horrible. The only way that he was gonna be able to sell, sell that building was through the 10 31 and he.

Costco. Got it. Costco, you know, ripped down the la ripped, ripped everything down, which, you know, created an incredible amount of jobs. And then the, with the, with the Costco up and running, the, another whole set of jobs are created and, uh, sales taxes generated for the town. And I mean, all that stuff. You know, the, the realtors that sold these things, the bankers, the financeers, the lawyers, I mean, there's so many aspects to what commercial real estate does that just the simple idea that this 10 31 is for fat cats.

It's like, no, this is the 401k real estate. We grow our tax, pre-tax dollars. We grow our portfolios just like you do in your 401k. And that's what, that's the secret sauce to the America economy that we're the spark plug for our economy. You know, local, state, national, and all these taxes that get created, you have over like 19 billion a year that gets created from the 10 31.

And if you were to get rid of it or cap it, you're only save. You're only bringing in about 2 billion a year. So the, obviously the juice isn't worth the squeeze and it it is, it is also the, the frustrating thing is to be able to make sure they understand that in underserved communities, that 10 31 plows a whole bunch of money into an area in Bronzeville, which is part of Chicago, that they, uh, had a food desert and they were able to, uh, a guy was started to develop, Mariano's grocery store, the a big old New York firm came in 10 31 and put in a lot gajillion dollars, whole bunch of money into this area that needed it.

And it was such a boost into this area. This food desert was gone and people are really proud of their community by having this there. And that would've happened if it wasn't for the 10 31. There people, you know. Invest their money there. And so it, so that's important. But then again, the farmers are important.

Farmers love the 10 31. That's a whole nother aspect. And then the other aspect are the environmental lobbyists. They. The, the, uh, the different groups, um, conservation funds, they wanna make sure they have open space too. So all these different groups coming together. Um, so my, I guess my long winded point is you, all of us have to get to know who our members of Congress are because we have to educate these people.

We have to stand ju stand in the breach, just like the, our ancestors did before us to be able to make sure and keep this in the tax code for the next a hundred. 

[00:48:22] Saul Klein: Okay. Yeah, Dan, you make a great point and that is that, uh, 10 31 allows you to build the estate with pre-tax dollars. And that's not just a statement.

If you looked at the math and you projected that over a 20 year period, you see just incredible the benefit that it brings. And, um, and I can't, taking away 10, putting a 500 a value, $500,000 value cap on it, just basically, 

[00:48:51] Dan Wagner: It's all the, the other interesting thing is that, um, we talked to the, the I B E W, the International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers.

They said that, that it's important for people to realize that. Private unions have to fund their own pensions. And so the pensions funds of, of teacher unions, all these different unions, they are funded through a large part by investments in REITs. And REITs are very much impacted if the 10 31 goes away because it re, it repositions their portfolios.

And so you're, you know, you're talking about fat cats? No, you're talking about the, the retired teacher. The retired, you know, the retired I B W worker, all these. Who are saying we need to make sure to pay for, you know, our, our, uh, groceries. And that's a, that's a real deal. And so those are some aspects that people don't necessarily even think of.

So it's, it's this holistic aspect that you gotta look at everything. And that's why everybody listening today, please get to know who your member of Congress is. That's my big takeaway. Get to know member of Congress, get involved and make sure to vote. And that's a huge. 

[00:49:58] Andreas Senie: I love it. And, and for the record, everyone listening today only because somebody actually fact checked me, uh, with chat G p t when I was saying something I was speaking and they checked it on chat, G p t, and they said, oh, it says you're right.

Chat g p t hallucinates and can be wrong all the time. Check with a real person who's knowledgeable and experienced in any subject and sector. Um, you know, don't go to, don't go to Wikipedia, go to Britannica for your, for your insight and to follow through on well said with what Dan said. 

[00:50:28] Anna Maria Kowalik: Well, and to follow through on what Dad Dan said, which might be lost, uh, in, in some of the conversation, but is the most important part.

Why do you need to get to know your government officials? And that is as industry experts, to educate them, educate, educate, educate. Because that is what we do here in the C pace industry, on every single, um, uh, every single transaction, every single day of our lives. We're always out there putting out the word and educating people on how it works, how to utilize it, what the benefits are.

And so, uh, I too will leave everyone with the education, uh, factor as well as encourage young people coming to the table and into, uh, this industry. There is a lot of, uh, um, Of opportunity in the green space and more and more so as time goes on it, uh, like I've always said, uh, the future is green and I'm sure, uh, Chris will be able to take it from here and talk about how important it is, um, to have green initiatives in, in, uh, construction industry as well.

[00:51:53] Chris Able: Sure. And, and I, I gotta, Back the rest of the, the rest of the team here on it. Um, it's funny that. You mentioned it cuz, you know, getting in front of those Congress, Congress, uh, men and women and learning, learning about their staff and all that sort of stuff is, I mean, it's, it's, it's pertinent. It's, it's exactly what you need to be doing and also you give yourself an opportunity to get in front of them.

Um, And not just go with the negative and not just go with the, you know, okay, I'm having a problem now. I'm gonna come talk to you. If you get to know them, then you can have open and open conversation, which makes the uncomfortable conversations a little bit easier. So, um, Case in point, earlier this week, I had in, within our office, we had a, um, uh, we had a, a little event where we had, um, Eversource Energy come into our office mm-hmm.

To do a presentation to talk about some of the incentive programs for contractors that they could sign up for and pass on to their clients and pass on to their, you know, their customers. And a few people mentioned, um, the idea of, oh, you got Eversource coming in. My electrical bill is this, Like, all right, listen, these guys are coming in.

They are not the people who are just sending you your bill. The, they're coming in to talk about the incentive programs, and they're coming in to talk about the things that you can do to help people go green and how you can use that as a benefit and get these rebates and all that sort of stuff. So I, I encouraged a bunch of the electricians.

I said, come in and. The good conversation and the uncomfortable conversation. A nice comfortable atmosphere. And the same thing goes for things like osha, OSHA dealing with the Congress, um, the people in Congress, all those entities. You don't wanna be the one who's just complaining about the restaurant that you just ate in.

Give them their, give them their, their fair shake to, to explain themselves and talk about different things. So it kind of goes a little bit back to what I said jokingly earlier about being kind to your centers of influence, having. Understanding that these people have 24 hours in a day just like you, not just the half hour hour that you're spending with them and being cognizant of their time and what they're doing.

And I'll tell you it was, I love having entities like, um, like, uh, you know, the politicians os. Um, you know, any safety folks, the ever sources of the world come into our office and meet with our members because they're in a spot where they can just have these conversations. And usually what happens is they end up hanging out after the event while I'm cleaning up and they start to talk about some of the incentives and the plans and how we could go green, um, and, and be more energy efficient.

I know in Connecticut, one thing that's going on without really going into is the energy efficiency. Any of the schools. There's this big push on the legislative side for any of the schools to become more energy efficient. And, um, it's a whole other topic, but it affects my, the people I deal with in. I mean, we're just in droves, we're getting conversation about this because if they're making these updates and they're doing these type of things, they're being, you know, there's, if those things are happening within the schools to improve the school's energy efficiency, uh, they're trying to put PLAs on all of them, the project labor agreements.

Mm-hmm. So the guys I work with, and the men and women I work with are, are coming to us a lot at ABC just because, you know, they're like, is this true? You know, we're, we're Mero based. Uh, thing, but long story short, without going into that stuff, I agree. Have those, have those, build those relationships so you can have the, the uncomfortable conversations as well as the comfortable ones.

And you can ask them how they're gonna spend their, you know, holiday weekend. Just like you can sit there and complain and nobody walks away feeling like it's a massive, contentious situation. And, It's the best way not to get ghosted on your next email, phone call, or in-person conversation. You don't want people going across the room at these networking events.

We've been inside too long, 

[00:55:58] Andreas Senie: avoiding you, God, come, don't try not to complain. Criticize and blame. Sure. I think is the, the old adage song, Andrea, 

[00:56:05] Saul Klein: Andreas, I would add that and I agree with it. What everybody. But I would say also realize that land use policy in the country is changing and that you should really take a look at walkable versus drivable and all the benefits that come from, and the, and the value premiums that we're seeing in prices and around ownership, as well as renting in walkable communities as opposed to drivable communities.

And uh, and that has all kinds of benefits. We've got housing issues, we've got land costs that are too much and what's the solution? And I think that if we look hard at mixed use and walkable versus drivable, uh, we'll find some value there. And that's where I would be looking 

[00:56:53] Andreas Senie: then. And. Well said everyone.

As always, I would, I echo the sentiment of working with, uh, regulators, right? Working with your congressman, working with the people that can help shape that policy. And to Saul's point, figuring out what policies are coming into effect or are shaping your market. Cuz if the regulations change, then so does the value of the real estate.

If they change, if they re. From commercial to residential, guess what? You're in big trouble. And that's just a simple example. The biggest opportunity for a practitioner in my mind today is to get very close to the. Incentives that are happening, the ways the government is looking to deploy capital in infrastructure around infrastructure.

As you said, double density, walkability. There are platforms dedicated to that. There are technology growing in all leaps and bounds, but most importantly, there are seasoned professionals who, who know the lay of the land that we can all turn to at any point in our career. So with that, The top of the hour here.

I do wanna remind those that are interested in going as a subscriber to the show. As part of the audience, you do have the opportunity to attend C R E Tech London. On May 8th, uh, 20% off. Use the code on screen. If you're not at Siri Tech London, you should be in DC with Dan watching Dan speak. I don't have a slide for Dan speaking, but we will get one up post production 

[00:58:31] Anna Maria Kowalik: notation.

It said May 10th and 11th. Did it. 

[00:58:36] Andreas Senie: May 10th and 11th. I will have to check that. I believe it's May 8th. I know my anniversary's the 11th, so it's not on, oh, you know what? It is on the 11th. That's why I'm not going 10th and the 11th. Uh, and I csc do you know that one offhand? 

[00:58:51] Anna Maria Kowalik: Um, isn't that usually like the 20 20, 20 second to the 24th, something like that?

It's shortened this year. It's only two days instead of four. From what I. 

[00:59:03] Andreas Senie: Cal the conference calendar's picking up. Reach out to your network, see where you need to be. Um, Becca's still hosting the luncheon, I'm pretty sure this year at Vegas. And I C S C C E Tech always great places to be. You heard her here.

Mr. Mendoza, you can lead us out. Thank you to our audience for tuning in. Thank you to my co-host for being the most intelligent people and, uh, collaborative people I know. Thank you. Thank care. Thanks. 

[00:59:33] Dan Wagner: Feel 

[00:59:33] Andreas Senie: better.