Andreas Senie: Welcome back to this month's real estate round table. Your all in one comprehensive view of what's happening across the industry, straight from some of the industry's earliest technology adopters and foremost experts and technology marketing, brokerage, government policy, capital construction, and cyber security.

This is a three part show as always starting with our introductions for each round table host and their, and what's happening in their business sector. Then we ju we drill down, dive deep into the biggest news in paradigm shifts, affecting your business part three and the final. What can you do over the next 30 days to improve, optimize, and basically outpace your competition?

I'm your host, Andrea Senie Founder, CRE Collaborative brokerage owner and technology growth strategist. Joining me this month for the first time is none other than Dan Wagner, senior vice president government relations at the inland real estate group of companies, all things 10 30, 1 DST, and, uh, as Saul would say the bigger picture that's truly making moves.

u. Thank you. It's great to be here. We are happy to have you as an ongoing host. Also joining us as always saw Klein, the original real estate, internet evangelist, a realtor Meredith and famous car wash owner. Yes. I said it, uh, executive editor at real town. Realty times, excuse me and our California native Chris Abel membership director associated builders and contractors, CT chapter, Rebecca Carlson, founder CEO, Carlson integrated Anna Maria koala, our director of business development over at, in green capital and all things, finance and C pace, none other than professor Darren Hayes, CEO code detectives, and one of the top 10 forensic specialists in the country.

And with that, we have our largest brown table ever guys, welcome back. We are, believe it or not at our 73rd episode doing this. And this is a big room. I feel like I'm on a big zoom call. All of a sudden , there's a lot of great people. So as always I'll SP I'll start. You know, the biggest changes here in the brokerage side, in the development side, real estate wise, rising interest rates, negative effect on lending, on commercial investment.

The spread is widening for all my, all my clients, all my customers, all of the different deals at the same time, my team's tenant representation. It's a little difficult. The, the new projects that were supposed to be completed have not completed. And now you've got your owners of your B and C, uh, mixed use and or retail strip centers simply saying, well, I'm gonna wait for the better deal I'm gonna push, uh, for better terms.

So although there's opportunities out there, uh, I think I speak for all of us deal. Speed is slowing as everybody adjusts to what's happening. That all being said, SA how about on the other side of the, the country there? How are things on the. East on the west coast. 

[00:03:46] Saul Klein: I think it's probably pretty consistent when interest rates go up, regardless, regardless of which interest rates go up, when interest rates go up, then it's a greater expense at different points in your business.

Be it the mortgage side or on the business side, on the credit card. I mean, it's just gonna be more money going to debt service, and that's less money that can be spent on other things, and that's gonna slow the things down and that's kind of what it's intended to do. And so we're seeing, you know, that in San Diego, I look at the real estate marketplace kind of watch days on market.

And while, you know, it's still early in the last 60 days, we've gone from like, uh, 14 days on market to 30 days, average market time. So, you know, is that, is that indicative at the short period of time, but I think probably that's, what's gonna continue to happen for a while. And in the meantime, I got my, um, financial statements from the car wash and car wash revenues are up 10% over last month.

And I actually visited the car, wash myself and I haven't washed my car at our car wash probably in 25 years. And so it was great to see the foaming brush and the, now you can put the credit card in and you can turn it and keep spending credit card money. And when you're done, you're pushing button. And so the so up 10% and another interesting point is that the density in the areas increased, uh, dramatically over the last 10, 15 years in particular, but more lately more buildings, bigger buildings, higher build, you know, higher, more floors, density, bonuses.

And so I, as I think to myself, the, um, boy, the car wash has just got so many more opportunities because of the fact that they're building more residential property. And that's great. And, uh, so I think things from the car wash perspective, uh, When, when I was there yesterday, all the I had to wait. All the bays were five bays.

They were all full. So, you know, the, uh, people are out, at least at that level, they're spending some money. And, uh, that car wash indicator indicates to me that, uh, that people at least want to do things. And if you can't do anything else, go out and wash your car. 

[00:05:59] Andreas Senie: Fair point. The economy, things are still moving.

Uh, what I'm hearing is people are out spending money, buying things. You've cleaned your car for the first time in 25 years at your car wash. Not that you went elsewhere, right? It was just you haven't cleaned the car. 

[00:06:12] Saul Klein: Yeah. See, ours is, ours is like a, you have to do it yourself. Right. And it's likes been many years.

I wanted to take the time to do 

[00:06:20] Andreas Senie: that. So, well, I, it, it's a, it's an interesting thing. I also washed my car this month simply because the high school was raising money and it was $5. And they did an okay job. So that worked out well. But before we dive deep or too far into the car wash world, uh, and hopefully Dan Wagner will be able to shed some light on this, uh, government policy wise, the inflation rates keep going up.

What, where, what is gonna happen or given the, the history in this room 200 years of real estate history, construction, cyber, everything, what is gonna happen now as, as we head into past the summer doldrums this two week, uh, part of the season into the fall for real estate for your car washing California is always busy.

We get that, but marketing everything. 

[00:07:12] Dan Wagner: Did you want me, I could give you a heads up of what's. Uh, what just came out of Washington. Would you want me to give you a kind of a per of 

[00:07:19] Andreas Senie: what's going. Only if it's gonna help us in the business, you're, you're frozen on my screen, but please go, Dan, by all means.

Can you hear me? Am I okay now I can. Yes, that's right. Looks fantastic though. We're gonna charge them a royalty. 

[00:07:32] Dan Wagner: Well, and I, I hope you know, I'm coming at, you live from the, uh, the land of Lincoln from Oakbrook, Illinois, and you can see my, my favorite president, Abraham Lincoln, you know, behind me on my shoulder.

So if you wanna know who I, who I love most it's, it's old Lincoln, but, um, I wanted to highlight to you that last week, um, their tax provisions and Schumer and, uh, and mansions re uh, Schumer mansions, inflation reduction act came out. So the inland, you know, I work at group, we're part of many, um, national organizations, but one of them that's very powerful is the national association of realtors and avid ARD is, uh, in charge of tax there.

And he put together a really good, um, understanding of what, what happened last week. But. Basically it surprised everybody that, uh, at most member members of Congress that the white house, uh, came out, uh, working with Senator Joe mansion and actually came up with a way to do, uh, reconciliation, which is a way to, to move forward and, uh, possibly raising taxes that, uh, provisions that were put out for tax provisions is that to 50% alternative minimum tax for large corporations, um, that's going to be, uh, put into place, extra fund service to improve taxpayer compliance, uh, change of the rules for governing partnerships with carried interest.

So you'll be, uh, pretty big, uh, increase in carried interest tax. The so I can kind of go into that, cuz that's obviously impacted a lot of, uh, people that are on this call. The provision will extend the long term capital gains holder requirement for carried interest in a partner. From the current law of three years to five years, meaning that the gains from investments held less than five years will be taxed and listened to this at ordinary income rates as high as 37% and not at capital gains rates.

The provision would also make several other changes to how these interests are taxed while provision grants, exceptions, to the longer holding period for assets used in real property trader business. And for individual taxpayers with incomes less than 400,000 per year, some of the other changes could reportedly have the effect of extending the three year clock on a mu on a much longer period and some partners facing the ordinary income rates on their paid interest.

So real property trader business is a fined as any real property development, redevelopment, or construction. This is estimator raised about 14 billion, and then another area is climate change, energy saving provision. So, um, this would include provisions for both residential commercial property euros that would help reduce their electricity bills.

They make their properties more energy efficient. I can go into that a little bit more, but the, um, the interesting thing is that all of the, there's a variety of Democrats that have highlighted that they're not gonna vote for any type of legislation that doesn't, uh, doesn't, uh, get rid of the salt cap.

Um, and that is, uh, it's, it's looked at the, they're probably still gonna pass it anyway, but everyone's waiting to see what Kristen CI's gonna do, but, um, it's, it's a pretty big deal that they're moving forward with this. The, the best news of all though, is that the 10 31 lichen exchange is not gonna be touched.

So thank God we've done a great job with everybody working together to, uh, to help save the 10 31. But, um, this is, uh, this is a big deal and, you know, everybody's probably watching this and, um, it's, I just wanted to highlight that, you know, be aware of it and how it could impact, uh, your development. 

[00:10:57] Andreas Senie: Well, so you brought up a, a great point.

Well, an interesting point there, five year holding periods and. , you know, as I said, development developers here, developments, some are slow. They're not gonna be finished. Sometime many are gonna come up for acquisition, not in Shelton. Cause Shelton's doing fantastic. But in other areas, uh, it sounds like they, they could even be penalized here with this change if they don't, if they have to 

[00:11:24] Dan Wagner: get out early, they're gonna be tax and ordinary income.

So they go from three years of five years. Yeah. And it's, uh, it's a big, big deal for people to be, just to be aware. It's, it's important that people talk to their, uh, accountants to make sure of how the deal is gonna, the numbers are gonna come out now because you're looking, being tax and ordinary.

Income's 

[00:11:43] Andreas Senie: a big deal. Oh yeah. Well, and Chris, is there, is there any light at the end of the tunnel here on the construction side, the development side and, and. Go ahead. Well, 

[00:11:53] Chris Abel: no, the, the bidding is obviously highly, highly competitive. Um, even more so than it, you know, than it usually is. Um, a lot of the, you know, the contractors I'm bumping into, they're basically saying, you know, their books are telling 'em that they need more work, but of course the labor side of things is, is kind of like, how are they gonna get the work done, which is what we've talked about over the last few months.

With some of the stuff that, that Dan was talking about, some of the, some of the other stuff that's kind of lingering in that, in that, in that piece has to do with, you know, the project labor agreements and, you know, who's, who's gonna be doing the jobs and who's gonna be up for being able to do those jobs and bidding.

So I know a lot of the, at least the contractors that I work for, um, to dance point, they're, they're staring at this at all of this information to kind of see how everything pans out, um, because you know, where I represent kind of the, the merit shop contractors or the open shop contractors, they're, you know, a little bit nervous to see, you know, if this is gonna up eventually down the road, underneath everything, increasing more of the project labor agreements that are out there, um, which shut quite frankly, you know, kind of shuts the, the merit shop out.

So, um, the contractors I work with, I mean, they're, they're just, they're hanging onto their bootstraps and trying to do everything they can to, uh, to stay afloat and just kind of, you know, get the work done. That's that's out there. A lot of them are telling me that they have jobs coming up. They just haven't started yet.

Which seems to be the trend over the last, I would say probably the last two or three months, but now that they're things are, seem to be slowing down for them. They're being a little more vocal about it. So when I speak to them, I've been speaking to a lot of GCs lately because I'm getting ready for an event in September, uh, to highlight a lot of them.

And they're kind of, you know, they're saying, Hey, you know, we're just, we got work. We're just waiting for it to get off the ground. We got work. We're just trying to wait to get off the ground, 

[00:13:44] Andreas Senie: but why isn't it getting off the ground? Is, is it, is it cash flow? Is it, is it, is it not calling Anna Maria for sea pace and getting that extra, that extra bump for, 

[00:13:54] Chris Abel: for the most part, I mean, it seems to be a capital thing or the, you know, the owner whoever's behind the project, not being able to get off the ground or trying to find ways to.

Still deal with some of the supply stuff and try to, you know, wait things out to see if some of the supply stuff will, uh, will come down a little bit. But, um, so I've been keeping my, my ears open to some of the, you know, the economist and a lot of the, uh, economic forecasts that are coming out. A lot of the stuff that Dan was talking about as far as the government relations to the best that I can, uh, quite frankly understand the majority of it.

There's a lot of stuff going on in, in, in all that, uh, in everything Dan mentioned there. Um, so it's tough. It's a tough, uh, tough time right now. And everyone's kind of just kind of hanging in there, but they're definitely a little more vocal about some of the challenges they're running into. And I don't hear as much about the labor stuff, even though it's there, I'm hearing more about trying to find more work and even if it's small, smaller jobs just to, just to compensate and keep people busy, 

[00:14:56] Andreas Senie: uh, well, it it's, it's amazing to me.

I there's a few projects going on through. Our team here and, and even through friends and with prices where they are, I've heard, uh, that contractors are, are simply not showing up on jobs. They've accepted because they're, they're doing other bigger jobs for more money and just leaving it halfway. And that's not, that's not a slight against the industry.

Just seems like everyone's jumping to the next big thing, which, which is a conversation in and of itself. Um, but so 

[00:15:28] Chris Abel: especially when that's kind of like we were talking about last month, um, and you, Marie and I were talking about a little bit more about, you know, the ones that are jumping all over the, the universities and the schools and the ones that can cut the checks versus the ones that are kind of more the private, you know, some of the private work.

I personally haven't heard anything about the, the, you know, not showing up and stuff like that. That probably just wouldn't be something I would, I would hear in my position, but yeah, I could, I could totally see it happening. Doesn't surprise me. 

[00:15:56] Andreas Senie: Well, it's, it's, uh, it's nothing new in the, in the cyclical nature of real estate.

We've been through this before labor shortages, uh, supply shortages, uh, that the only new thing today is, is really the data and the, and, and how aware I think we all are about, of each market and all our different areas. Uh, especially when we look at some, you know, professor Hayes, you just came back from, okay, you're out there in cybersecurity and such.

Everyone's, everyone's aware of, uh, or maybe they're not, we're all vulnerable to many different risks as business owners, developers, owners, investors, lenders. Um, is it, are there things on your side from cyber security that are impacting the construction side, the development side, the labor side, I mean, is, is that a contributing factor to this delay?

I can't hear. 

[00:16:55] Chris Abel: I think you're muted, 

[00:16:56] Andreas Senie: Darren. It is while Darren unmutes and then obviously marketing wise, everything looks great and it all sounds great. But when we drill down Becca, I want to hear the difference of, of what's really happening out there cuz you know what we're seeing and, and what we're being told is marketing plastic check

[00:17:19] Bekah Carlson: Oh, I think that that's a, 

[00:17:22] Andreas Senie: that's a rough, good question. Right? Darren, are you with us?

Darren checks that 

[00:17:35] Bekah Carlson: seat. All right. So we're gonna talk about perception and reality cuz they're not always the same things. And a lot of companies are working to build perception when the reality may not be quite as sexy that they're still. Raising capital. They're still providing the same in similar terms because they might be in a fund structure where they are captive to the terms that they set forth before.

And yet financing financing does change over time. And so what I am seeing is that some of the funds that I work with really are projecting like no more acquisitions this year. Eh, we're done. We, we did a lot of really good work. The first half the year, we were really busy, but we're not gonna be able to find anything the rest of the year.

So there's a ton of capital. The markets flush with capital, however, investors aren't idiots, either and they know that they have to make money off of it. Off of these investments. I will be really interested to see how this longer term hold comes into play, because I think that does very much change the business profile of the developer.

Often developers do. do that development with that plan of an exit and monetizing that development pretty much immediately, as soon as it's completed, if they have to have that five year hold for capital gain. So it's not treated as ordinary income. I think that's gonna change some business practices and some, and how developers approach those new developments.

One piece that I'm seeing on the real estate side, that's kind of interesting to me is that there is some distress here in Chicago, in the hospitality sector, but I'm 

[00:19:17] Anna Maria Kowalik: also seeing a lot of 

[00:19:19] Bekah Carlson: in interest in the hospitality sector of people, adding hotels to their list of things. They finance, adding hotels to the list of things that they're seeking as far as acquisitions go.

And I think that with the rise of travel and in some markets, it's actually above 2 20 19, already, some of those marketplaces are going to continue to be very, very. Very flush with capital and interest on those hospitality sides. So I think hospitality, you know, all of our, every market that we serve in commercial real estate has a cycle to it.

And so hospitality of course, had a really hard cycle that actually reminds me of, um, 2001. I remember, right. Or right after nine 11, what, how hospitality was impacted the COVID cycle reminds me of the same thing. So I think that they're going to continue to be great opportunities in that sector. So I'm paying a little bit extra attention to that one because it is an outlier to some of the other product types that I typically pay attention

[00:20:21] Andreas Senie: to.

Well, and, and you brought up an for, you brought up an interesting asset class, uh, hospitality, hotels, like short term rentals, like public storage. I mean, these are in my mind and, and in, in a, in a lot of brokers. Portfolios right now, these are the things that are transacting because you can adjust up conflation.

We can raise the rent on a, on a hotel room for the night. We can, we can increase dramatically what we charge and, and we can adjust, whereas an office building or a retail center with long term leases, they're gonna be there's, they're stuck. You can't change those contracts midway. Uh, I mean, the only thing you can do is try to improve performance with, with environmental and CPA, which is Anna Maria's specialty here.

uh, and Darren's working on his audio. Uh, are you seeing some of the same in Maria? Are you finding that more owners are reaching out to you now to, to carry over, so to speak? 

[00:21:19] Anna Maria Kowalik: So, absolutely. Uh, I wanna go back to your original comment, Andreas, where you were talking about, um, you know, people kind of running scared or being hesitant, you know, seeing the rates go up so quickly and, uh, all the various iterations.

And, um, and, and so for a while, things had slowed just a little bit, but we've got a really healthy pipeline. And I have to say that, uh, I'm realistically optimistic. Of course I can be in, in this wonderful industry. I think, you know, we're, we're just at the, uh, you know, precipice of, uh, really becoming bigger and, um, Although we are still seeing, uh, you know, as Chris said, um, uh, you know, some delays in projects, uh, but they are in the pipeline.

I mean, they, they're, uh, looking for financing, uh, they're prime for CPA and CPA is always, I always call it kind of a recession proof type product. Um, today's rates that we're seeing are basically almost back to the level they were pre pandemic. So, um, you know, it it's, it has been, um, a, a, a good run for us this summer.

And, uh, you know, I, I, I just see it getting bigger and better all the time. So, uh, You know, last, uh, I wanna speak to that hospitality point too, uh, back up because, um, you know, last conversation that we had here last month, we were talking about regional differences. Um, you know, and, uh, how real estate trends can vary quite a bit from, you know, depending what part of the country you're in or, or depending, you know, just where you're again, the, the basic tenant of real estate location.

And so, uh, on that hospitality note, um, there are lots of hospitality, lots of hotels doing really well right now, getting back to, uh, uh, just about pre pandemic, uh, uh, situations, uh, based. Tourism or based on, um, uh, you know, where they're located. Um, uh, if they're more urban centric and, and were the types of, uh, places that hosted, uh, business events, you know, maybe those places are doing a little less business than they were, and they're still not up to par.

So I think a lot of it just really has to do with, um, you know, regional and, and different other metrics, but, um, where we've been seeing in sea pace, a lot of growth, multi-family new construction. And so I that's really where it's at. Right. And, uh, and, and I think it's gonna hold there for a while. Uh, housing is always important.

Affordable housing is always very important, uh, and, and reaching the right, um, uh, targets. And, and so, uh, yes, I think, uh, you know, multi-family will continue to do well for a 

[00:24:48] Andreas Senie: while. Well, and, and so whether regionally nationally, the multifamily is always a great bet for all investors. I've been a firm believer in that as is everyone on the call, I believe.

Uh, but here's my big question. Changes in taxations cash flow, uh, pro form of cash flows are now shrinking. We're getting to what, what may or may not be. And, uh, Dan, you brought up this due five year capital gains treated as ordinary income, which brings me to SA. Eight years ago, 10 years ago. And through our show, the last six months, we started to talk about fractional ownership, interests and ice coming in and purchasing different parties is, is the relief that we all need as brokers, developers, investors, owners, uh, with these assets around the corner, in that we can start to sell those interests.

We can move it to that secondary market. I 

[00:25:48] Saul Klein: don't know about, I don't know about around the corner I want, but I wanna mention something about Anna Ray saying realistically optimistic. real, real. The other day, I, I kind of identified myself as optimistic and, uh, so no, you, so the, the housing, a lot of people don't understand how the housing finance industry works.

Sure. They just don't see it. It's this giant thing. It's all right now controlled by the us government, right? Because Fannie and Fred are in. Receivership. And so the risks are taken at that level. And so ice is this giant company owns the New York stock exchange we've been through. They've been, they're like working on taking 70 or 80% of the cost of loans out of the market, out of, you know, out of the loan process and just they've spent $50 billion to do this.

So where is it going? And how soon will it be here? I don't know. They spent 13.1 billion on the acquisition of black Knight, which had, has some more components of what they're building and they, they're starting to get industry pushback primarily from the GSEs, from Manny and Freddy who see this as competition.

So the technologies are back there. They're being built even beyond that, as the things we've discussed, which is a fractionalization, you know, facilitated by blockchain. To allow people to take advantage, kind of the idea is that everybody should have the opportunity to participate in the, in the, uh, benefits of real estate ownership.

Even if they can't come up with a lot of money. If I got $25, I should be able to participate. And so there are people that have this, this vision of being able to fractionalize to the level where anybody can buy at any time in marketplaces. And I guess to answer the question, all that's taken is all money's being spent.

People are being involved in that house long. It takes maybe, uh, what Dan talks about when he talks about tax changes might have something to do with how long all that takes to, to, for that to happen. Right? Because we know that that tax policy often is more than revenue. It's social, uh, engineering as well.

Well, good point 

[00:27:57] Dan Wagner: if I could jump in that, you know, when you talk about social engineering, you look at, um, in, in red states versus, uh, blue states, Um, some of the blue states are doing rent control, um, in different places and their tax policies are, are, are pushing, uh, people to be fleeing different states.

And so I think you also wanna take a look at where you're gonna purchase. And I think you look at Florida, you look at Texas, you try to go to the tax friendly states. And I think that's an important factor that people have to be aware of. Um, it, it, when you look at, you know, the, uh, the crime rate in downtown Chicago, you know, we're, uh, we're upset about having, um, a state's attorney that just is letting people outta jail.

And so people are feeling less safe. We go to San Francisco, Seattle, I mean that have different places that are, um, very in Portland. Um, so those things you have to take into consideration when you're looking at, uh, purchasing or, or developing anywhere, 

[00:28:53] Saul Klein: you know, I read something the other day. It's interesting.

So we have COVID and so these new new necessities then created new behaviors. And then the real question where the money is, is which of those new behaviors are gonna become habits. Yeah. And then you gotta figure that out ahead of time. And so a lot of people were saying the, there is no more new normal, and people are not gonna return and everybody's gonna work from home.

And that kind of was like the word of the day for a while. But I I've read recently where maybe that's not the case and some cities, people are going back now in the cities, you mentioned Chicago, the big, uh, SI New York, San Francisco, the, the downtown cuz people were talking about, we gotta reconfigure the use of some of this property.

And now they're saying maybe not, at least in some of the smaller, under 300,000 population where they're actually people are going back to work and they're going back to work in greater numbers than some of the bigger cities. That's a good 

[00:29:47] Dan Wagner: point. 

[00:29:48] Andreas Senie: Well, and as they, as they reconfigure and I, I wanna run back or point back to your, uh, buy at any time statement.

What about selling at any time? Can these and inland, you know, the DST that's Inland's inland was the first, this is why it exists. You invest in the DST, someone else manages it. You've got that income. It's, it's a great vehicle for those who don't know about it. Instead of being a landlord with a headache of answering the phone and dealing with it, if you, if you have enough net worth and you can invest into that securities product, what is, well as a, 

[00:30:20] Dan Wagner: as a, as a series 7 63 person securities person, I first have to say that you need to talk to your financial advisor before you decide to do anything and this guaranteed anybody and return on any investment, but all so you do all those, you know, preliminary things, 

[00:30:37] Andreas Senie: but will, will it help the developers and these owners that are now St you know, I can't sell in five years, hit with capital gains.

Can I, can I now to what SA was bringing up? Can I, can I open myself up to bring on these micro investors to, to, to bridge my financing gap? We've got CPAC. I mean, what, what, it's a, that's the new world. So saw coming back and forth on this. I, I actually, 

[00:31:03] Saul Klein: I was talking to a young CEO startup guy and, uh, his concept is because there's a market for any cash flow product.

Really, if you think about it, so people buy cash flow. And so how can that cash flow be general? How could you, might you be able to finance apartment buildings instead of qualifying the owner? Their concept is you qualify the cash flow and you do this on the blockchain and real interesting concept of a new way to qualify and loan money.

And so you might see these new ways of, of, uh, of financing and new methods to qualify. Think, you know, I had to get access to 

[00:31:39] Anna Maria Kowalik: funds. Well, in Saul that's what CPAC does, is it qualifies the value of the property. It qualifies the property itself, not the property owner. And so it is one of those alternative, those kind of things.

[00:31:52] Saul Klein: This was the cashflow, that's the point there, different ways to do 

[00:31:56] Anna Maria Kowalik: this well, and then saving the energy, saving on utility bills. Yeah. It, it balances out and, and there's your cash flow? Absolutely. 

[00:32:05] Andreas Senie: Well, and, and taking it further into the future, I think could, could developers owners, contractor could be contractors then instead of, uh, taking that money from the principal, from that owner, are there gonna, is there a place where they can gather that investment similar to what Chris touched on last month in that they, they have their own own barter network now where they're saving materials and exchanging it just, just to, to make that margin.

Cause our margins are sure. That's really that technology, 

[00:32:33] Saul Klein: that technology is being built is being utilized. Marketplaces are beginning. It's gonna take time for this to take place, but yeah, you bet, right? I I've envisioned marketplace for just about everything because there's enough people. If you could just access everybody in the world, there's enough people to create, to support a lot of different businesses, but you never had access to everybody in the world before.

And so now you do. And, um, and it is amazing. What's taken place and how fast it's taken place. And yeah, we can look for, for big changes and the technology is being built to do that new ways to finance. And it's great to see these new people coming up with new ideas around I, so I used to be involved with, and I know you are people.

I had, uh, series 7 24 63 securities license, and we were involved. In real estate syndication and be really careful about it. But now it seems there are new, new exemptions and new ways to do it. So people are trying these things. And one of the things you have to be careful of, if you're looking at these fractionalized, uh, ways to own things, is are they securities or are they not securities?

Absolutely great point. Sometimes they are. And sometimes they're 

[00:33:43] Dan Wagner: not right. And, and that's a, that's a big key. When you, when you look at a company, um, like inland our 50 some year history, you gotta look at some, a track record of the company because it is very dicey out there. And, you know, we follow everything by the book and you wanna make sure to have a conservative company that's gonna be working with you because it's scary.

You could walk into a, really, a dangerous, uh, area for your, your client or for yourself, and you wanna make sure it's gonna be the right thing for you. So whatever you do, you always want to, uh, double check and have the suspenders on whatever 

[00:34:18] Andreas Senie: you do. I'm. I'm sorry, I was headed your way. I was perception.

Security. Go ahead. 

[00:34:27] Bekah Carlson: Perception. Reality. Well, right, because someone's marketing these funds, somebody's marketing these opportunities for fractional ownership and they're putting forth something that we're all perceiving. And we do need to understand the reality of that. And actually, I wanna talk to Darren about this because I think the, the cybersecurity element of this and the security of this information may be as important as the, whether it's a security or not.

I think whether it is secure or not is equally and possibly even more 

[00:35:02] Andreas Senie: important. Absolutely. Darren, we can connect to everyone at any time. Saul's words what's happening. What are your thoughts? 

[00:35:11] Darren Hayes: Yeah, no, no, absolutely. And, and, uh, the thing as well is that a lot of people think, think about companies and company investments in terms.

Secure, but there's a lot, lot of people who are, you know, a lot of companies out there have both been right. So Elon Musk talked about that. Uh, others are doing that. So cryptocurrency is a big for a lot of mature companies today. And so that really important. Um, and you know, a lot of these exchanges that, uh, have been holding Bitcoin for have, uh, been targets recently and, and a lot of people lost millions.

It's important. 

[00:35:58] Andreas Senie: Well, so how do you know? So, so a firm like back, you've been raising money for different funds to, to invest. We've got inland, we know Inland's got a track record, your, your brand recognition is there. How do we know we're dealing with the. Uh, a good actor, the right person in today's world, as we continue to expand, uh, as we're going out there looking for those deals, looking for those, looking for that supply for those contractors and those people,

Darren, is there, what can we do to, to check first, uh, as, as an individual, what am I checking for? And then second, I'm going back up to Dan, how can I make sure, uh, regulatory-wise that I'm dealing with the right people talk, go ahead. Go ahead. 

[00:36:47] Dan Wagner: So, so one 

[00:36:48] Darren Hayes: thing, one thing I would, 

[00:36:49] Andreas Senie: can you hear me, Ken? Sure. 

[00:36:52] Darren Hayes: Yes.

Something I'd like to mention is that that one, one of the big problems with fraud is AI has become so sophisticated 

[00:37:03] Dan Wagner: that, uh, a lot of videos are 

[00:37:06] Darren Hayes: created of CEOs, delivering message, use donors, um, and it's resulted in log. Of millions in certain circumstances, picking up the phone to verify that this is person, or this is the correct matter is, is sometimes really, 

[00:37:23] Andreas Senie: really important.

So picking up the phone, I love to hear that as a broker, I make a lot of phone calls, right? Phone calls and, and, and networking. That's the way this business was run for generations and then, uh, uh, Dan, as far as a place to look, and Inland's got a track record to go online, we see beautiful marketing and, and you look great, but what does that look like for people looking to well, 

[00:37:50] Dan Wagner: for, to find, to, to find, you know, companies like inland and you know, of course, uh there's uh, there's not any companies like inland, right?

we're all original here, but the big deal is, um, you know, the securities and exchange commission in fin. They have wonderful lists. You can go online and you can look up, uh, you know, different companies that have been fined. And you wanna take a look at, in researching yourself before you put any of your money into things you need to research and find out on your own.

Um, if it works and then you wanna work with a really good financial advisor that has the background and when they have a series seven and 63, and SA knows this, you get fingerprinted by the FBI. That, that, that's why we have the great, you know, the SCC and Fedra, everybody is, is going over and making sure that that things are being done properly.

But you wanna look at, uh, look at those websites and take a look at who you're dealing with because who you do business with is everything. And you don't want to, uh, mess around. And, you know, when it comes to like Bitcoin and all that kind of stuff, I, I am totally clueless about that. So Dan Wagner, if I'm clueless about it, I'm not putting my hard earned money into that.

Some people are great with it. They know technology, they know what to do. You gotta go what's in your wheelhouse and you wanna be able to have a trusted advisor, just like when you, you use a realtor, when you get a house or you buy, you know, co you use a trusted advisor, financial advisors are the same way.

You gotta really go and check out who you're working with. And, and, you know, you're, you're the best at what you do. So we gotta listen to you, right? 

[00:39:30] Andreas Senie: well, that we're each the best at I've been lucky enough to surround myself with the best and brightest. This call is the highlight of that. But before we jump to that topic in what I do and what we do, uh, Chris, what about on the, the construction side, the development side, I mean, you said there's labor shortage.

How do, how does an everyday person, or, or even someone in the business like an in. Protect themselves downstream when they, when they're hiring these contractors, are there, are there people going out there misrepresenting themselves? You don't have FINRA on top of you, you don't have that place to check.

Is there a place to check for your contractors and so forth? 

[00:40:10] Chris Abel: Yeah, I mean, the, as far as making sure that they have the, the right people in the right place, that 

[00:40:16] Andreas Senie: they're gonna be that the right guy, the they're not gonna set your house on fire and tell you it was your cat 

[00:40:22] Chris Abel: or . Yeah. I mean, it's a, you know, I'm sure different contractors, different companies have their, you know, different methods on, on checking on, on who they're bringing board.

Um, you know, it's, it's something that's been going on for, for decades and decades and decades, if not hundreds of years, as far as, you know, unfortunately where we are now, um, fortunate for the applicants who are looking for. If they wanna work in the construction industry, it's pretty easy for them to, to find jobs.

I've had a couple, uh, you know, a couple of people basically say, Hey, listen, if they're, if they're getting up and they're coming into the interview and, and you know, if they're breathing and they're ready to do some work, I'm, I'm ready to bring 'em on. And I'm, I'll monitor them, monitor these people myself and see how it, it works out and do all the background checks, which I can't, you know, you're not necessarily always gonna agree with that, but at the same time, um, we're in a weird spot where people who are retiring are almost more marketable to bring back somewhere or get hired somewhere else than people who should be working for the.

20 30, 40, 50 years. It's a very odd, uh, place to be where, um, a lot of the companies are saying, Hey, listen, I, I know you retired last year, but we really, we need you. We need you, you have your license, we'll pay for you to get your, you know, your license back. If you don't have it. And I, I just need you to come in.

And when you're talking about those multi-family, uh, situations, I need you to come in, so I can get a couple apprentices under you for the next six months while they're training. Um, just so we can work and get them towards their license. So I do see a lot of, um, interesting stuff going on where they're, they're going back to who they know and who they trust, and they're willing to dig in their pockets and invest in some of the people that quite frankly are looking to get, you know, looking to get out.

I've heard a, a lot of that over the last three months. Um, and then, you know, the good companies are always going to, you know, invest in the, not only the marketing to bring in better applicants, but they're gonna invest in the, um, You know the resources to make sure that they're checking these people as best they can at the door.

Um, but at the same time, there's a lot going on. It's it's said that, you know, at least 40% of people are lying on their resume. And usually about 60% of people, checking resumes have caught somebody out on that resume. Now that could be everything from something simple to something huge. Um, but it doesn't take too, too long.

Um, putting someone onto a job site before you realize if they've been there before, um, and what their issues 

[00:42:57] Andreas Senie: have the hammer, you know, it's the flat side of the hammer, not back side. 

[00:43:04] Chris Abel: I do see a lot of, um, a lot of contractors starting to rely a lot more on the labor agencies and the staffing agencies to kind of do that, that work for them where in the past, some of these contractors might have said, you know, they're just more expensive, they're more expensive, but if I have to be out there and I have to be.

Taking care of the, the men and women that I already have hired I'm I don't have any choice, but to spend the money through the staffing in, in, in the, um, you know, the staffing agencies to, to kind of vet these people and figure it out, and I'm just gonna have to pay that money. And then there's a few of those agencies that are basically, you know, taking the risks on right off the bat, um, before they actually pass them over to, you know, to the contractors.

Um, so it's interesting. It's 

[00:43:51] Dan Wagner: interesting. Have you guys, you guys ever think about using so, so inland we're, um, we're part of a, a whole bunch of organizations, but one of them that we're really proud of is the better business bureau in the Chicagoland area. And we've received the, uh, torch award for ethics, uh, for, uh, running our business.

And so that kind of, you know, better business bureau does a really great job to, uh, evaluate and, and check, uh, if the company is good. So I know that that would in every area that it's something to take a look at. But even 

[00:44:21] Anna Maria Kowalik: when you go through the checks and balances, no one has a crystal ball. And so, uh, we've had, uh, especially, um, in the solar industry, um, you know, uh, people, uh, have the tendency to come and go for many different reasons, but, uh, we've had occasion where, you know, fully vetted, uh, contractor, uh, then had a falling out with, you know, between partners and dissolved the business.

And now, you know, the, the customer who had a job done, uh, is kind of left in the lurch, you know, because they have no one to maintain their product. And, uh, you know, and, and no one crosses the lines of, uh, uh, you know, doctoring someone else's job, you know, someone else's patient, uh, you know, and, and it. You know, and, and still, um, uh, for example, in our industry, we have, um, uh, the program administration, uh, that, that is the arm in each of the states that helps facilitate the, uh, financing transaction.

And, uh, typically they vet, uh, capital providers that are signed up with their program, uh, contractors that are registered with their program, you know, whether they, uh, you know, how extensive that check might be, but, you know, at least that they are who they say they are and are, uh, you know, allowed to do business within that state, uh, is extremely important.

Um, you know, but there's always going to be something, you know, that can slip through the cracks. Like, you know, the two owners that didn't get along and, and dissolve their business. And then, you know, suddenly people are left in the lurch. So. 

[00:46:12] Dan Wagner: Great 

[00:46:13] Chris Abel: point also one, uh, one other thing, um, is quite frankly, you know, and this could be a whole other topic, a whole, or show whole their conversations.

That there's also a lot of, you know, there's people out there. I mean, all of us are, but there's people out there that are, you know, quite frankly there, everything could look great. Everything could be good to go, but they're, they're just dealing with stuff. Um, now that they either weren't dealing with before, or they're dealing with things at a level that they are finding it harder to, to handle.

I mean, there's a lot of mental health stuff out there that a lot of stuff underneath the surface that doesn't show up on any background check, any resume, any of that sort of stuff, but they, they might just be, you know, trying to get by and trying to get by and, and, you know, it's, it's different, different time, different time and place that's for sure.

[00:47:04] Andreas Senie: It's uh, so I've recently I, one of the ready podcasts that turned into a. Uh, the harder business review was talking about just that mental health and the workplace and the shift and the change mm-hmm and Darren, this is coming over to you through audio works with technology, where it is, and, and AI in these unforeseen circumstances, which let's be honest.

There aren't many new unforeseen circumstances. There are, there are early warning signs that now we can tell, for instance, as I understand it, companies now, depending on when you're logging into your computer to do your work, when you're, when you're clocking in and out, uh, things of that nature, how much time you spend on the phone, all of this is being tracked and cataloged and, and turned into indicators.

You mentioned before the CEO videos of, for deep defects, but at the same time, there's technology analyzing our facial expressions, micro expressions in our communications. I, I mean, shouldn't there be as an HR professional, which I am not. Are there, are there, is there a light at the end of that tone, say, Hey, this person's burning out or, or maybe this person's a bad actor automatically, not just on the it side, which we talk about a lot, but really more on the, on the programming side, using that AI inward at your own organization,

Darren, you with me maybe, maybe not. No, if not I'm passing. Can you hear me okay. there is. Okay. Can you hear? Yes. Can you all right? Sure. Can. Okay, good. 

[00:48:41] Darren Hayes: Yes, you can. All right. Great. Okay. So, so I would, I would say that, uh, yeah, if you haven't take a look at a website type called this person, doesn't, you'll see really, you can create fake profiles very, very easily.

So it's very easy to set up pictures. Um, W with websites like LinkedIn, we have a trust, right? When we have similar people who connect and it's very easy to create, uh, a fake profile and gather a lot of information, somebody on their company through there. Um, there's all apps that we use, like TikTok, for example, which we know are being used, uh, to profile people and their photographs and what they say.

And, uh, it's an app that can install malware. It has that ability to it also, uh, has the ability to check your, your approved apps, phones. So government developed apps. So, uh, it's it, it's a, uh, it's 

[00:49:54] Dan Wagner: world and also huge growth and intelligence, 

[00:49:59] Darren Hayes: which is really important to see what. Has been leaked your company out there.

So it's important to see those, uh, like just pasted

paste bin, these types of websites, such as, you know, the CEO and, and his bank can that thing. 

[00:50:24] Andreas Senie: So I, so I can use those sites to see if my developer's off spending those WANs from my CPAC loan or thus CPAC loan, uh, in the various way. It sounds like, but Saul's got hand up. Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:50:37] Saul Klein: Andrea, you think about your point about mental health?

right. And so I think where you were kind of going with this is what, if you could build a big enough database of people's facial expressions and apply, you know, had the computing power, the computer scientists and the artificial intelligence to go at it and analyze years and years of expressions of serial killers.

Could you maybe get a, a, you know, ahead of time, uh, an idea based on the right on the, the facial expressions and the data behind it. But if you could, then you gotta get into this issue of privacy. So our facial expressions then would need to be protected from a privacy perspective, but I got where you were going with that, right?

I think 

[00:51:22] Andreas Senie: you did. And, and, and spot on Facebook stopped using their facial recognition algorithm a few years. I think ahead of this very, that privacy issue, because it would open up too much, too many issues with privacy. But as a company, we, you know, we sign a, a code of ethics working at inland. You, there's a, there's a, an expectation and not only to your point and you spot on yes, privacy is the issue data.

It's all there, but can inland as a, as a large corporation. And I'm using as an example, inland does incredibly well in all things as, as any large corporation. Can we figure out ahead of time that contractor, that team, that site, uh, isn't doing so well, should we know that above and beyond the market be we skipped over you on the, on the, to LinkedIn of it all and correctly.

I not for nothing as my own shameless plug is a great place for real estate professionals. And. And we do check for bad actors. All counts are verified, but, uh, where are we? Why not? Should we be there? And we are coming up on the top of the hour here. So we're gonna have to move part three relatively soon, but go ahead.

I, 

[00:52:45] Bekah Carlson: I did wanna, I, I think I can bring this all together and I wanna talk. So I think that there's an intentionality when a, a company is operating and that intentionality has to go to the employees and we are seeing elevated HR practices, talking about culture, talking about mindfulness, about work life balance.

All of those conversations are really important. I think the next step to, to really making culturally a shift that that takes care of employees is the mentoring that Chris is talking about. So when Chris was talking about these older, more mature, really knowledgeable people are being brought back. It's because they have that chance to have apprentices and mentor them.

I just have a broker who runs a mentoring program who just hung his license with me. We were doing a whole mentorship, a formalized mentorship program. I got to participate in a mentorship program this year as a mentor. It's amazing to be able to have those opportunities pass it along. And I think that we are, it's our it's.

The onus is on us as older professionals like to give back in that way of training and teaching. And I think about Darren, who is professionally a teacher, like absolutely, we all have this really great opportunity to share our knowledge. And that's part of maintaining that healthy structure, because if you have a mentoring platform or structure within your organization, you're catching that stuff.

You're knowing that the project's not getting done because somebody is suffering from some outside external influence. So that's my pulling that part together. . 

[00:54:26] Andreas Senie: Well, and, and Beck. 

[00:54:27] Anna Maria Kowalik: And I talked about this a couple of months back in one of the sessions, uh, about women mentoring women and, uh, uh, creating a stronger commercial real estate workforce, uh, with women.

[00:54:41] Andreas Senie: Well, and, and, and, and to bring it around a little further to Saul's point and what I was trying to allude to, even if we get to a point where a computer's gonna tell me that person's, that person's baby was trying at 3:00 AM and he didn't get enough sleep clearly for whatever reason, however, it does it, facial expressions, those human nuances, uh, that intuition that someone needs little help or needs to pull back a little that is AI, that doesn't.

A, uh, and Darren, correct me if I'm wrong, we have AI that can calculate a lot of things, but it does not calculate common sense. It cannot make that leap. It cannot bring with it. The 50 years experience, for instance, inland has in doing what it does and understanding between the lines. Uh, everyone on this call, speaking of mentors, inland founded by teachers saw you.

You taught the industry, the internet in real estate. So back to your point, yes, that's right. Mentorship of the human element. 

[00:55:42] Saul Klein: You hit the deal on the head by Andreas and that's nuance, nuance. And so any professional in any industry that's worried about being replaced by computers just needs, needs to focus on the nuance of their job.

And that's not to say that computers won't be able to do that someday, but right now that's your strong point and that's the human side. And that's where the power is. 

[00:56:04] Andreas Senie: Yeah, I, and the old 

[00:56:05] Dan Wagner: school and the old school of, of ethics is a big deal. And when you have the relat. Um, like, you know, like our Joe Senza would, he buys stuff for the United States.

He's got relationships with people, you know, for many, many years. And that, that, uh, that your word is your bond and all that, all the good stuff that we grew up on it's it's tried and true for a reason. And, and I'm, I'm, we're old school. 

[00:56:29] Andreas Senie: Yeah. Your network is your net worth, uh, is, is, is true. Is as true today as it always was.

Yep. And I don't mean your, it systems, Darren. I do mean that the people you work with, right. Your ability to execute and we, and we are running into the top of the hour here. Part three of the show has what should our listeners, our audience do? What should they be aware of? If you had to pick one thing from each of your individual sectors, uh, to point them towards what would it be?

Uh, I will go, I'm gonna call it out around the room. I think we're in different orders, just like a traditional zoom meeting. But Dan you're to my right. So I'm gonna start with Dan. What is the one thing a real estate practitioner or audience should be focused on from where you sit? 

[00:57:17] Dan Wagner: So the Democrats have an ambitious agenda to pass the sch mansion reconciliation bill by Sunday or Monday, and just, uh, be, you know, aware of that and see, cuz that's, that will have a direct impact on, uh, your business.

So make 

[00:57:31] Andreas Senie: sure you're aware, right? Press what's the one thing, uh, the industry should be focused on from your side of the business sector of the industry. It's not a zoom call till 

[00:57:42] Chris Abel: somebody's not. So, yeah, so I second exactly what Dan said for one, but then on the other side of things, kind of an overall, uh, situation, and we kind of saw mention that people are getting back out there.

Darren mentioned verifying the right people and we all talked about all the, the backbone of this whole thing is that. You know, be visible, physically, get out there and start networking and get in front of people. And, and you know, that kind of tribe is true and get in front of people and figure out who you're dealing with.

Uh, there's a lot of events coming up. There's a lot of things going on, um, and just get out there and, and, you know, start dealing face to face with some people and find out where the players are, and not only find out where they are and go there, but also be visible because if, if you're not out there and you're kind of invisible people, aren't seeing you, it makes it a lot easier for people to try to, um, you know, kind of pulling over on you or hide themselves if you're hiding from them.

Speaking of 

[00:58:38] Andreas Senie: being visible back, uh, if you're invisible or even if you are visible, based on what everyone else is saying, it sounds like you have to, uh, perpetuate and make sure that you're in person back to network and network. What's the one, what's the one SI what's the one thing you'd advise. For the industry?

[00:58:55] Bekah Carlson: Well, an important piece of perpetuating visibility is paying attention to analytics. We do that on this show. We're always tracking the analytics of who's talking to us because we do get like little notes in chats on the various platforms that matters to us because we like to interact with our audience.

But also I'm thinking about Saul. He's paying attention to his car wash analytics. He knows that it's 10% higher this month than it was last month. We should all be paying attention to analytics and paying attention to numbers. So especially going in, I mean, we're in the last half of the year, let's pay attention to our 

[00:59:28] Andreas Senie: analytics, John, John doer measure what matters, right?

And we each have a set of metrics and things that make us, uh, make our, what we do more value. Cause that's the nuance of it. All the translation solve have to hand it to you. There what's the one thing the industry should be looking at. I think 

[00:59:50] Saul Klein: that we need to start to pay attention to land use. And we need to look at this huge problem we have, which is housing affordability.

And one of the ways to combat this problem with housing affordability is the increased density. And there are certain parts of the country that are ripe for increased density. And there are certain parts that aren't, but if we could increase density, something like five to 8%, we'd eliminate most of the, uh, housing problems that we have.

It doesn't take a whole lot. So I think in California, they just passed, uh, recently, uh, AB nine and 10, which basically says all single family lots now can have multiple units. all, all single family, lots. There's no more single family, lots, all single family. Lots can have multiple units. Now there's a lot of different aspects to this, but that's the law.

And what ha has happened as a state. What they've said is local of the local ability under police power to have zoning and zoning laws to create the environment locally, it hadn't worked because people can't afford to buy properties. And so something has to take place in the state really in California has usurped the locals.

And I'm not saying whether that's good or bad has usurped the locals and said, single family, lots. You can now build more than one unit on it that opens up all kinds of issues and all kinds of opportunities. So if you're in the real estate industry, start to pay attention to those two bills, those two laws, because there probably are similar ones in effect right now.

And that will probably grow because the affordability issue is a major issue where we all need to come together and solve it. 

[01:01:30] Andreas Senie: Absolutely. Uh, recently I was at a, a broker's luncheon, 40 of the, uh, most mature let's call them or the, the old guard here in my area. And, uh, affordable housing, IE workforce housing is the today term I've been told.

So that density problem is that density solution is gonna change. And that's gonna come back to regulation, but before we go there, given the time Hannah, Maria CPA can help us get there. If only there was, uh, uh, a provision that said you could build that extra home becoming more efficient for humankind, for housing, instead of just your lighting, what's the one thing they should be focused on.

[01:02:10] Anna Maria Kowalik: Well, uh, you know, just to that point, there is residential CPA in certain states, uh, actually in four of the 50 , uh, CPA is enabled commercially in, in 37 plus DC. So, um, and that number is growing. Uh, I, I might even be off by one or two because there have been some recent, uh, enablements, but, um, I, I would just say C pace is alive and well, and you need to find out about it if you don't know enough about it and just contact me, I'll be glad to help you through it.

[01:02:46] Andreas Senie: Absolutely. And Darren, uh, there's so much you could tell the industry to be watching or anyone to be watching in the cybersecurity world. what's the, what's the primary focus or what's the biggest thing on your mind? Uh, for our listeners?

[01:03:06] Dan Wagner: Um, 

[01:03:06] Darren Hayes: well, well, ransomware continues to be a major problem, so that's important to propel that, but I would just say the most sophisticated threats are the state sponsored threats. And, you know, we had this shields up with, with, uh, CSA ING, you know, with, with the, uh, Russian aggression against Ukraine as seeing in terms of China and what's going on with Taiwan, be prepared for cyber attacks for China, a against the us and, and maybe the west in general.

So, so think about that. That's 

[01:03:40] Andreas Senie: important, which goes back to the point of, Hey, uh, if you get an email, you get a call, you're working with someone follow up by phone. Right. Anything you, any, everything you do follow up by phone? It is the, the try to true way to get deals done. Uh, at least from where I sit guys, I want to thank you guys for tuning in and being such a great part of this show and helping grow this show to the size.

It has grown not only has it grown to be one of my favorite shows. It is a favorite show for over a thousand different listeners over the month. So I wanna thank our audience for tuning in and as a thank you for our audience tuning in use promo code Cracko 20 and not 20, and why for 20% off CRE tech, which is new York's biggest in person commercial real estate tech event, exhibits networking, meeting the people in person, right.

Uh, that's in October and before we sign off, we've each gone around the round table hosts and talked about what's important. What's focused on, you can reach each one. Uh, Dan Wagner at inland Anna Maria koala also at inland Rebecca Carlson, Chris Abel, and professor Darren Hayes, as well as myself. If you have any technical questions, want to talk growth strategies and, or just brokerage we're here every month.

First Thursday of the month, before we sign off, don't forget to download our show and more importantly to call Saul. Cause I didn't forget Saul. He put it out of order. You better call Saul and it's Saul at better. Call saul.com. Funny enough, no, just kidding. At the data advocate. Yes, 

[01:05:41] Saul Klein: better cost all realtor, 

actually.

[01:05:43] Andreas Senie: Yeah, you do have it right. The better cost cost all realtor. I love that actually, uh, with that guys. Uh, I want to thank our audience again. Don't forget to download our show anywhere you get podcast, audio, apple, Alexa, Google, Spotify, stitch, or Pandora. Simply ask your Alexa device, listen to the correct AI round table with Andrea sunny.

Please also don't forget to subscribe to YouTube channel where you can see our sector interviews with each of the hosts, as well as a host, a whole host of great content, do share rate and review us. It does help and don't forget to tune in next month or reach out. Thank you again for tuning in.

[01:06:24] Dan Wagner: Thanks everybody.

Thanks for next time. 

[01:06:28] Andreas Senie: You.